h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

semenary is almost here

For clarification on the names and temple questions:

In a temple that has already been dedicated (blessed, made holy, opened for temple season, whatever you want to call it) people who have been interviewed by a bishop (he's the leader of a church congregation) may go inside and take part in special ceremonies ("ordinances") considered very holy. Some of the requirements to be allowed to go inside the temple is to be a member, pay a regular tithing of ten percent of your income to the church, feel that you are living an honest life, and be honoring the law of chastity (if anyone has any questions on that, ask, but I won't go into detail here).

Part of the requirements have to do with age as well. 12 to 17-year-olds can take part in baptism by proxy for the deceased who haven't had a chance to be baptised while living. Once you are 18, there are more ordinances that you can take part in. One of these is called an endowment. Since I haven't had an endowment yet, I don't know exactly what goes on, but they are things considered quite sacred and as a result you should not talk to everyone about it as many people are not quite ready. One of the things that happens during an endowment is that you receive a sacred name (most members prefer the word sacred to secret, but you should not share it with others). I cannot exactly say what this name is for, since again I have not gotten an endowment yet. So this names thing does in fact exist, but people who have not received their endowments yet do not know much about it. They are not rituals in the negative sense of the word, like many people accuse them of being, but should not be talked about in detail with people who haven't taken part in them yet, they are of that nature.

I hope I have cleared that up for those who didn't understand. Maybe I should write an entry about Mormons, huh?

an entry would be a greate idea thanx you just cleared some stuff up thats been floating in my head thanx again

So, when I moved to Utah, I was very curious about the faith, and the people I would be living with.

First I read the Mormon Murders, then some wierd book about an ex-mormon woman who was afraid of sex (I forgot the title). Neither were very telling, or very encouraging. Finally, I read some (not all) of the Book of Mormon.

However, one of the things I have continually found is the inability to get a straight answer ( I can read them, but I rarely get them in conversation). Now, I am likely going to come accross as antogistic here, but I am not, I am frustrated by the facts, and the conflict, and this comes out in my dialog.

You have said that you never have heard of a mormon recieving a sacred name, but I have read repeatedly that the name in question is the one by which you will recognize your spouse when you have ascended to the "whatever". So your statement that you never heard of one is very contradictory to many sources. Do you have a church recommend? Are you married?

You have replied that your understanding of the word of wisdom regarding caffein is that it is not so specific, but that it i recommended that you avoid toxins of that nature. However, the clearest interpretation I have heard is that "hot beverages" are tabu (although the "devout" mormon who told me this was convinced that hot chocolate was OK because coffee and tea are consumed at considerably higher temperatures). Again the contradiction is that Taco Time and J'B's do so well in this area (despite a lack of drink and smoke we are not a particularly healthy population) and Salt lake is a leading market for the sale of ritalin. Fat-rich foods and child numbing stimulants are ok, but coffee is not.

I have several mormon firends who's company I enjoy (If they are still active I find that they are less friends than acquaintences as there is a transparent barier in place... They enjoy the decadence of having a non-morman heathen easterner as a friend, but never really get that close).

I have spend a good amount of time reading the postings on http://www.exmormon.org/ The stories are interesting, and very telling... one thing that I have found obvious. You are never really ex-mormon until it no-longer bothers you that you are not off the church roles. Sound contradictory? When you believe that it just doesn't really matter, you have broken free. But if you still believe in your heart that you should have slit your throat from ear to ear and spilled your guts on the floor for divuldging the secrets of the faith, then in your heart you still believe.

BTW... Mormons have made claims to being "the lost tribe of isreal" (if you insist I will discover the source). Ironic, in that Orthodox Jews do not accept conversion. In judiasm, as I understand it (I welcome guidance) if your mother was jewish, then you are jewish. If not, you're not. period. You can convert and claim all you want, but the fact remains that if the maternal chain has been broken, you are no longer of the faith. In Fact, I read that a certain chromosome has been identified within rabbinical lineage among orthodox jews. This item has been included in that it supports elements that suggest that the mormon faith reaches in a quest for authentication.

Mormonism share elements of many faiths, it is feasable that along with the secret ceremonies of the Masons, elements of other faiths would be included. I just wish I could get a straight answer.

My friend, looking for a straight answer from ANY religion is like tryion to open a wine bottle without a corkscrew...difficult, if not downright impossible.

My condolences on moving out here, you are going to find that both the members of the church and the non-members have one thing in common: They are both nuts. Both want the other to go away and they aren't shy about saying so either. (Admittedly the Mormon faction would rather convert the "heathens" but it comes to the same thing.)

---Erin

OK,
The coffee, tea, and hot chocolate question. I am an adult memeber of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am married and have been a member since 1983. The portion of the Word of Wisdom you ask about here was written on February 27, 1833. It was a revelation from Heavenly Father to Joseph Smith regarding a question he asked in prayer. You see during this time memebers and non-memebers were drinking coffee, tea and using tobacco both smoking and spitting. Joseph inquired in prayer regarding the use of tobacco. Joseph's answer was hot drinks are not for the body or the belly. At that time the hot drinks of choice were coffee and tea. I do not know if hot cocoa was in use at the time. My quess it was not. Nowhere in the Words of Wisdom does it point out that any caffinated beverage can not be used. I have been with General Authorities (these report to the Seventies who report to the Apostles who report to the Prophet) and we had hot chocolate with our children on campouts. If it was a concern the G.A. would not have offered hot chocolate. It was not an answer of temperature or caffiene since hot chocolate has caffiene in it naturally. So it was something else in coffee and tea. Both drinks stain your teeth, hot chocolate does not seem to do that. C&T contain many other compounds other than caffiene that are much more dtrimental to your health. Both C&T contain a chemical called theopholin (hope i spelled that right), this is a poison to human life at some level. I don't know what the limit is but there is a limit. Some years ago I was assigned to work for DuPont in US. During random drug testing I was flagged for Theopholine. I was over the limit in my blood stream. I need a note from doctor that it was administered by him to help control asthma. I don't recall wha tthe limit to humans was but I beleive the dose is quite small. Bye way this is a slow poison. Since my treatment was short term no problem to my health. And yes my doctor had cautioned me that this treatment had to be short term since theopholine is a poison.

All the answers you ever need on Mormonism come from Joseph Smith himself. The self-professed dead languages scholar who claims to have translated the Book of Mormon once wrote a letter in which he claims to have quoted seventeen languages, including Chaldean and Saxon. His translations are laughable. And when he brought his people to their first "promised land" in Illinois, he named the land Nauvoo, which was supposed to be Hebrew for "beautiful plantation." No such Hebrew word exists. In fact, since Hebrew is written without any vowels, it would only show up in text as "Nv."

The entire Book of Mormon is a fabrication by a philanderer. Why anyone takes it seriously is a mystery to me.

I second that motion. The Mormon myth is crumbling. Even their own archaeologists have NEVER been able to find ONE shred of physical evidence which supports ONE claim in the Book of Mormon. The middle east is chock FULL of physical evidence which coincides with and corroborates Biblical history. Not so with Joseph Smith's handiwork.
Anyone with an ounce of intellect who investigates Mormon history and the claims of the Book of Mormon will come away realizing that this is one of the greatest deceptions in American history. It's only because the Mormon followers are encouraged NOT to question their leadership, or the history of their church that they are able to continue believing.

I found out a little bit about the "endowment" process. I don't want to give it away if it really is a secret, but it may be in your best interest to check out [Broken link removed by Moderator]. Enter at your own risk.

I am only going to reply to this and no more. I refuse to get into an argument over who is right and who is wrong, but there is tons of archological evidence in Central and South America to support the Book of Mormon. There have been discoveries of people who were practicing Judiasm, but called themselves Christians. Stars of David have been discovered on Statues. Light skinned people and dark skinned people have been represented in their murals. When Columbus and the Conquistidors came they thought that they were the Son of God who was light skinned and had a beard who promised to come again to them. I have also seen a picture pubished by National Geographic, that showes a light skinned people on one side, a dark skinned people on the other lookingup at a person descending from or ascending to the sky that looks just like Jesus Christ.

Now, I know that Mr. Nice Guy is going to call me a "blind follower" or that I don't have my facts right. If Mormons are so wrong because they believe in the Book of Mormon along with the Bible, How does he feel about Buddist, Muslims, and all the thousands of other religions in the world that don't even believe in the Bible or God?

They are wrong also.

What I should say is, "How do *YOU* feel about Buddhists, Muslims, and all the other religions around the world that don't believe in God or the Bible. I think we would find something there that we agree on. The FACT is, that ANY religion that denies that the Bible is the complete and absolute word of God, also denies that the One True God is who He says He is, and therefore denies Him. And for that reason, they are wrong.
And I don't think I'm right because of some childish attitude -- "I'm right, you're wrong." The only reason I think I'm right is because I put all my faith in the Word of God, the Bible, and it's absolutes and truths. It has stood the test of time, scrutinized by millions of people throughout 2000+ years of history. The Book of Mormon has been proven wrong, literally torn apart with inconsistency and fabrications, in it's short 100+ year history. Compare the Bible to the Book of Mormon and decide for yourself which one carries more authority..they certainly cannot be compared equally, the Bible makes that perfectly clear.
Have a nice day.
P.S. People born blind do not know they are blind until someone who can see tells them what they are not seeing...think about it.

Mr Nice Guy - I wasn't going to answer you as you are so antaganistic towards ideas that are different then your own, but I did ask the question first so I feel that I should answer your request to the same question.

I feel, and always have, that truth lies everywere and as children of God it is our duty to find and embrace truth where ever it is to be found. I love Buddist philophy as it has so many truths that (in my opinion) mirror the Beatitudes of Christ. I find that the small amount of the Muslim religion that I have studied, is very similiar to the morals and beliefs that I have also. John 10:16 states "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice". I believe that He doesn't only speak to those who call him by name or believe in the Bible. There is truth everywhere. Joseph Smith jr stated "One of the fundamental principles of "Mormonism" is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may." Gordon B Hinckly stated "Be respectful to the opinions and feelings of other people. Recognize their virtues; don't look for their faults. Look for their strengths and their virtues, and you will find strength and virtues that will be helpful in your own life." There are more, but I think you get the gist. When you stated "they are wrong" I feel that you are doing a great disservice to the wonderful, upright and moral people that are found throughout the world who don't believe in the Bible.

By-the-way, I have studied the Bible and Book of Mormon side by side and have found that they both support eachother. They both testify of the divinity and mission of Christ and how to return to live with him again.

Ms Cat, I appreciate the fact that you have been willing to discuss this with me, despite the fact that we will probably never agree. I agree with you that God loves every single person on this earth. There is absolutely no doubt about that. But mankind has rebelled against God, we are born as sinners, and as such it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to come into His presence on our own. But He loves us still. He loves us with a love that is simply incomprehensible to us, He loves us even though we deserve death. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16. I know you know this. Jesus went on to say, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18. So for all the other religions in the world, they can believe all they want to about peace and happiness and nirvana, but unless they believe that Jesus Christ was sent here to die for their sins, they are condemned. It's black and white. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9. No matter what we do here on this earth, we cannot receive salvation except through Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if we are a priest, a saint, a Hindu, Mormon, or even the Pope. Good works do not get us into heaven. Good living does not get us into heaven. Salvation is a free gift, given by God, for those with faith that He loved us so much, that He gave His Son as a sacrifice for our sins. We cannot earn it. Jeses said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6. Without doubt we are to love all mankind, because God commanded us to do that. I agree that we should not be prejudice, that we should embrace all people of all cultures. We should love them as we love ourselves, because God commanded it. But the reality of Scripture is that not all of mankind will be saved. Only those who have faith in Christ and repent from their sins. And I nor any of us here on earth are worthy to judge the hearts of another. But it is our responsibility to share the Gospel with all the world. We are not supposed to merely live and let live. We should love all people, but despise sin. We are to actively spread the good news about the salvation that is available to each person who would believe. Not all will believe. Many will reject God. Those who reject the truth of His Word are rejecting Him. And the Book of Mormon is in direct contradiction with the Bible. You say they support each other. You are leaving something out. Deuteronomy 4:2, and Revelations 22:18-19 spell it out clearly. You cannot ignore this, but you are choosing to do so. If I choose to ignore those commands, I in effect could read anything I want to and imagine that it has the authority of the Bible......but I'd be fooling myself. No other literature, no other writing has the authority of the Bible...how do I know that? Because it says so in the Bible. (the same verses as mentioned above....) God does not make mistakes. If you think He does, then you are talking about a different God than the One True God of the Bible, and you are sadly mistaken. I do wish you peace and happiness, and I hope in time you will open your heart to understand this.

{shudders and looks warily around} Oh dear, I think I took a wrong turn somewhere...so many opposing viewpoints, and all of them SO sure they're right...

Empress of the Universe. The Opiniated conversation has ended. I hope you haven't been scared away. Many (including myself) would be happy to answer or discuss Mormonism in a non-confrontational way if you want to.

{peeks back into the room} But I am more-or-less an agnostic Buddhist, with a twist of time. Mr. Nice Guy might start bashing me with his Bible--mess up my hair. Wouldn't be pretty.

Now that I've pointed out the inconsistencies of the Book of Mormon, I'll tackle that other religious work, the Bible. It has failed to stand up to scrutiny just as much as the Book of Mormon. The New Testament, for example, is a work of fiction set in a historical background, much like Gone With The Wind. The four gospels that tell Jesus' story are self-contradictory. A reading of the discovery of the tomb, for example, reveals four incompatible and wildly divergent tales. The two geneologies are completely fabricated, since they both involve different numbers of generations, and both trace through different bloodlines... and the one in Luke isn't even the royal line of David. And it is worth noting that 90% of the dogma of the Christian religion is based on the letters of Paul, a man who never even met Jesus. I could go on and on...

Stop beating each other over the heads with your respective bibles, people... there is nothing worth hurting anyone over in either.

"When Columbus and the Conquistidors came they thought that they were the Son of God who was light skinned
and had a beard who promised to come again to them." - This is completely inaccurate. I've never come across anything that suggested Columbus was mistaken for a god. Cortes, leader of the Conquistadors, was. Your "Son of God," however, was the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl, God of the Air. He is often portrayed as a plumed serpent, and was credited with bringing civilization down to earth, then fleeing in a snakeskin boat, pledging to return. When Cortes arrived on shore in a boat decorated with feathers, the Aztec king Montezuma believed him to be the returned god. If Jesus was in fact Quetzalcoatl, then all the Judeo-Christian believers are doomed to hell, because the Aztecs knew that he required human sacrifices to be appeased.

Empress of the Universe - Exactly what is an "more-or-less an agnostic Buddhist, with a twist of time" ? If Mr Nice Guy Starts Bashing, ignore him, I will.