h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Whose Henry XIII by the way?

I am thinking of the one who divorced his wives with the headman's axe because the Church wouldn't let him divorce. And I hit the post button on accident, so here's the continuation of the last post:

In the case of Moses, God is saving His chosen people from a certain genocidal massacre. It's much akin to the Allies opening the Nazis death camps and killing the Nazis themselves. I can't possibly see anything wrong with saving the life of innocents.
As for Jericho, beats me. I really don't see how it matters.
As for Job, he was rewarded with, quote,

"After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. All his brothers and sisters and everyone he had known him before came and ate with him in his house. The comforted and consoled him, over the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.
The Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. And he also had seven sons and three daughters. The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-Happuch. Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers,"
-Job 42:10-15
God did not gamble. He's all-knowing. He knew Job would survive, and remain faithful. It's hard to lose to a dealer who's playing with an open hand...

Lucifer didn't like not being in command. He wanted to be God, not God Himself. He didn't like being ruled, which meant he really didn't like God. Beats me why he wanted power. He was given free will, and he used it, to the wrong purpose.

I very much doubt there was any changes at all to the original Bibles, as the monks copied them down, word for word, one book at a time. There was no "whisper," as it was all done without the fallible human memory being relied on all too much.
The Egyptians did not thing the sun was a ball of heat. They thought the ball of heat was a god itself. Anyways, you're proving my point. Religions are made of things that exist, not things that are imagined.
God allowed the showing of power, because His show would be far greater. He gave us free will, remember?

Souls do not go there 'INSTEAD'. They go there because their owners choose to go there, meaning to or not. There was a point, remember, when nearly all the world knew about Christ, believing or no. The Enemy has maneuvered well enough to remove that influence. And Hell is a great example of why the enemy is not nearly as powerful. God created heaven, perfection. If Satan wanted to win supporters, he should have to. But he didn't. That's interesting, because he wins support through deception, through his servants appearing to be angels. He can not come anywhere near the glory of God. He rules through pain and fear, God through love and kindness.

And there's no proof God isn't real, either. One cannot use science to prove god doesn't exist. That'd be like someone using a painting to prove the painter doesn't exist. God created this world, and He created the rules it obeys (Science). How else would Jesus have walked on water, if not that He had command over those very rules?

Brainwashing is a very, very hard thing to do, and indeed I would be slightly suspicious of any group healings. There are far too many cults that look like Christianity, something that is, again, a threat to God's salvation. The Bible speaks that there will be many false messiahs. Be aware, but do not completely mistrust. I myself have seen, with my own eyes, my friend's life saved by God's grace. Not with an explosion of lights and miracles, mind, but by four incredibly ironic and improbable events that just so happened to occur when I was praying to God that, if he was real and would save my friend, I would do whatever He asked. I felt Him, not like an ominous, or even scary feeling, much like the mental equivalent of a tap on the shoulder, and, Bam!, everything fell into place. I will never forget that God saved the one and best friend I've ever had.

The problem is, by the time death reaches you, it'd be too late. The Catholics believe that they can earn their way into heaven, as do the Mormons, but it does say in the Bible, (Acts 16:31),
"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household,"
and Christ himself said “The only way to the Father is though me.”

I could easily show you what he means. And I'm not offering a hokey cult, and I'm not here on the behest of any denomination. This is /me/, a person, /homo sapien/, and no strings attached. Think of is as an offer with which you can't lose. There's no ritual, no creepy meetings with cowls and candles, no chanting, nothing. You and me.
I am offering, because I’d like nothing more than to show you. Because, once you know God, it’s not that there is no turning back; it’s that you won’t want to. It’s the best feeling in the world, knowing that everything, /everything/, will be all right. That is, if you want to.

Think about it!

I can tell you exactly how this cult works:

1/ The belief that is already there...
2/ shut your eyes...
3/ play soothing music...
4/ quick whack into the middle of the forhead and give the people the spasm. Saw it done.

It's fully plausable that there was a guy called Jesus... it's also plausable that he could also have been one of these false meesiahs and just got famous.

I'm not trying to prove atheism with science.
You can't prove no god with science just as you can't prove God just by reading a book.

Lucifer didn't like being ruled... would you like someone telling you what you can and can't do? People do things because they think they can do it or it's morally wrong.

Why can't Jews get to heaven? If anything they should be in first class.

For Job, he still didn't get his wife back and God needn't bother if he had already won (paradox there)... By agreeing with the devil, even if outcome is already there, he is still playing with a man's life.

So... souls do go to Hell instead INSTEAD choice or not... there's no difference... but in the not it is God condemning these people to eternal torture when he is loving... can he not stop the souls going there?

Religions are not made of things that exist... they are made of things believed to exist...

And the Bible... Monks might have wrote word for word but they were writing from Latin which was written from Hebrew which was written for scrolls which were written through what they remember to have happened... eg. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John didn't sit down right after the crucifixtion and write Jesus' autobiography... how did they know that mary was a virgin? They were taking the word of a man who COULD have just been doing a few tricks and thus gaining reputation... I don't think there's any Pontius accounts saying 'I convicted the King of Jews' today'

And it depends how/what you're offering...

I was at the top of my world and didn't question anything.. I believed in god/Jesus and they were helping me but then a series of events in my life slowly pushed me over and down... And I slowly began toe was a God letting my life get worse by the minute and then not helping me after my blind faith then he must be one pompous, selfish son-of-b---h... Then came to the conclusion that he wasn't helping me because he WASN'T THERE! A sham! A hoax! A nice little story told to kids to make sure they grow up to be nice people and not question anything when the crap of the world comes down on you nd hide the truth like all religions do: that we are just part a scientific process... out species should be dead, we've past our evolutionary sell by date and the only reason we're surving is because we're feeding off stuff instead of being adaptive- we're lazy... Seagulls are starting to do that now! Foxes, badgers, racoons are all stopping what they normally do and feed off what we feed off!

My friend, I've also had incredible problems in my life. My mother had breast cancer, and nearly died. Talk to spook, who's mother DID die from it.

And it isn't plausable that Jesus is a fake, because if you'll notice that the Bible goes to great extremes to point out that He successfully fulfills all of the Hebrew propheses of His coming.

I don't mind being told what to do. I'm told to not murder, not lie, not cheat, not rape, etc. Things I don't want to do, and things that, if I did them, would get punished for either by people or by the law. I don't desire absolute power any more than I desire to fly. Sure, it'd probably be nice, but it isn't going to happen, and I really don't need it.

Jews can't get to heaven if they hold on to the Jewish belief that Jesus isn't the saviour, and that it was merely a coincidence that all the miraculous healings, teachings, and prophecy-fullfilling, not to mention the rising from the dead bit, and He's still not come.

Actually, Job never lost his wife, and it is not possible to win something if you never play the game. Though it may be an NFL team verses "The Little Tykes Playschool," if the NFL never shows, "The Little Tykes" may be getting contract offers within the week.

There is the account of the very large mob screaming, "Crucify Him!"
I very much doubt that you just walk away from that. And, the apostles had no reason to lie. They were already going to be killed for what they were saying. If they didn't believe it, then why did Peter request to be crucified upside down, because he felt that he was not worthy to die as Christ had. These men threw away their lives for nothing less than the truth.

What I wish is that I could physically hand you the three books that have helped me so much. C.S. Lewis is known as a nessessity for the Christian thinker, because, like you, I like to not go into things blind. Indeed, without logic I'd never have been able to find my way back to God.
What I'm trying to offer you is a chance to answer your questions on the how, and who, and what, even the why, though those take longer. I hope that by answering your questions, I might help you put aside your doubts and fears (And I say fears, because they are there, even if you can't really see them. Finally allowing myself to give up and follow Him had to have been the hardest thing I've ever done, in an emotional sense,) so that you may find Him.

I, with all honesty, would love to help you. It would be a great joy for me, because I might have actually done something to help someone else.

I don't doubt that the Apostles were lying... just mislead. Belief is a powerful thing that is supremely difficult to change...

The Apostles could have been wrong but no matter what anyone said they would have truly believed...

I'm not talking about the Bible as an account... I'm talking about records from someone at that time.. Judas' suicide note... anything!

You're told not to murder etc. but are you saying that if you weren't Christian you would do these things?

Where is the proof that the Bible is true? You just think it is.

What proof is there that you even exist, or that I exist? You just think I do, and you do. I have faith, for, as I've just read, seeing isn't often believing. We try to prove whether or not the Bible is true, but we go at it unbelieving in the first place. As C.S. Lewis puts it, "If we hold a philosophy that excludes the supernatural, that is what we shall always say."

However, I can't see where the twelve could have been misled. Most everything they saw with their own eyes, such as Peter walking on the water. The Apostles themselves learned to cast out demons in God's name, as our priests still do today, admittedly not often. And people saw them. They worked in public, where anyone could see. Thus, more and more carried word of this "Messiah," through the world.

The Holy Spirit filled them, and they spoke in tounges. And that Holy Spirit has filled me before, and gave me words that I didn't think of saying before. I was giving testimony to a friend, and afterwords she told me that I had changed, that what I was saying was completly different from what I normally spoke like. And by filling me, the experiance was more like your concience, that little voice that keeps saying things like "this isn't right..." whispering directly into your thoughts. It doesn't take control, but suggests. Free will.

He is alive and working as we speak, today, here and all over the world.
And with murder, if everyone lived by God's commandments, we would live in a perfect world, with no crime, no murder, no need for punishment. But we do not. You'll find that men make each other miserable, and if we could all stop and follow what He told us we should do, I think we'd find the world a better place. Much better, in fact.

I seem to speak a lot of C.S. Lewis, don't I. Read some of his stuff, if you get a chance, and you'll see why. Especially a Grief Observed. Written after his wife's death.

What does speaking in tongues prove? Are epileptics and mentally disabled people speaking to God then?

It's all psychological and mental.

As for my existence. That's just someTHING that was given a name. A name we give to the whole life experience. A word meaning you're just here.

Like air. It's just a name given to a combination of gases and vapours and keeps us alive.

As I've repeated many, many times before. God is just a name given to something that many people think is holding everything together. Just because people can't explain the universe before a big bang, or collection of gases or whatever then it must be something bigger that made that and repeats until it is given the name. And how do we get past the slightly bothersome question of how that THING that made everything got there? Oh it has always been there. Simple, easy, quick fix for anyone that doubts their faith.

I'm fully able to believe that there was Jesus walking around in 5BC approx.
But since there was, and you'll agree with this hopefully, many other people walking around for the past centuries calling themselves Messiahs, how do we know that that one particular person was Him?

Well we see cults today... no reason for it not to be around then.
12 brainwashed, gullable or scam artist fishermen follow this guy around.
Hey THAT 'messiah' has got more people following him than THAT messiah... let's hear him out...

'Miracles'. Evangelists today 'heal' people. In other words they make the injured THINK they've been healed and won't go to doctors to find out.
Quick brainwashing can control what they see and the best thing about brainwashing is that you don't know if you have been!

'I touched him and got healed!!!!' says crazy man/woman who has gotten into the hype. Well, 2003... 'I got abducted by aliens and probed!' Obviously THAT's not hype and we're going on what people SAY.

Do you think that if you find the Holy Grail that you'll get Eternal Life (and I mean in this plain)? If you were to find the pieces of silver which Judas betrayed Jesus for, would you go insane and commit suicide?

Let's find the body of Chri-- Oh wait... we can't... there isn't one... he came back to life and floated away... and by the time people are ALLOWED to be atheist any body will have decomposed. Nice and easy.

Our society (humanity) is based on telling stories to get a point across... I've just been doing it. JESUS apparently did it but any Apostle could have found the Old Testament in it's scroll form and thought.. Nice story. Let's build on it.

Besides.. CS Lewis was supposed to be sexist/rascist wasn't he?

Well, for one thing, C.S. Lewis was not racist or sexist, as I think you'll find if you read any of his works. He takes a very kind view of people.

Speaking in tounges referred to the multitude of languages that the people around them understood. If they had meant "Babble like an idiot," I'm pretty sure they would not have written it that the people understood what they said.

God is the name of what is holding everything together. You're right there. He exists, I'd sure say. And everything hasn't been here forever. God made it. If it was made, it must have a beginning.

We know that Jesus was the savior, and I do agree, there have been a lot of people claiming to be Him, because he fulfilled all the ancient prophecies, and also performed a lot of miracles that could not have been scammed, like raising Lazarus from the dead, who, according to the people who saw him die and entombed him, had been dead for several days, and, indeed, was beginning to smell.

Once again, story and I aid God is a name for something.

What were these prophecies (?) as the one I came across wasn't very difficult for anyone to do. Ride a donkey through the East Gate of the temple.

Just because it is written does not make it so. In the Middle Ages people wrote of the world being flat and unless Colombus was playing a prank, America is pretty much there.
How do you know that the evils of the world weren't caused by Pandora opening a box?

People exagerate. It tells a good story. lazarus could have been dead for a few seconds whereupon Jesus whacked him in the chest a few times, a trick which he learned in China during the decade or so that is missing from the chronicle of his life...

CS Lewis was accused of being sexist because all the women played evil/inferior roles in the Narnia books. I didn't say that I thought he was.

You cannot tell me if I'm right or wrong 'cause you do not know. I don't know and is impossible to find out about the creation of the universe.

People select and choose the parts of stories and books that best fit their needs. We're both doing now.

People say they've experienced God but this is always by people who already believed in God. the reason these things happen is because people want them to happen on a sub-conscious level.
One woman who claimed to have been going to Hell but got resussitated is the closest plausable answer there is, unless she because of things in her life she would go to hell. Strange how every account bar one is on their way to heaven.

Back to the bible. This biiig collection of stories is vague thus different interpretations thus different meanings.
Those that take the bible literally are confusing/contradicting themselves... Apparently we are all sons and daughters of the incestious Noah who was the protege from Adam/Eve... Now this boat fits two of every kind.... What the smeg is a 'kind'? Every class? Every species? If it's class: dog, cat, lion, dinosaur... then we'd have been wiped out millenia ago. If there's only two of each, are the lions gonna go vegitarian and not eat the two gazelle to survive. If it's species: St. Bernard, Collie, Dachund then there sure as smeg wouldn't be enough room to fit into this 40 cubits long and 40 cubits wide along with food for the... the... gazelle? There'd only be fish in the world.

If it's meaning? Thou shalt not kill (it's probably longer) . Just people? Or can we no longer have poaching?

I saw a programme the other day about 11/9/2001...
People turned to religion and in it one religion, one where they believe that [a Christian one] God will protect them from the smakes they handle...
They claim that they will be protected from the snake and when people have dies or lost fingers: 'We didn't say the snake would bite'

What is god supposed to be protecting these people from?

People choose what they want to fit the situation: 'In god we trust'. 9/11: 'God works in mysterious ways' That's basically saying that we aren't willing to question anything.

But I'm not asking anyone to question their beliefs, I'm just one in 6 billion, but just think about. Belief makes people arrogant and unwilling to think about it if they're wrong.

Bubonic Plague: Argh! A sign of the Apocalypse!
The common cold: Argh! A sign of the Apocalypse!
SARS: Argh! A sign of the Apocalypse!

People just twist and rewrite want they want to rid themselves of these questions. The personal example is at the age of 6 in the playground getting told at school about God created everything. I asked: who made God?

I was told to go and tell this to the Headmistress... The teacher was getting rid of me and I was given a sticker (wow) for asking an intelligent question. That was it. No answer. people avoid.

Well, there were many, many more than one.
He had to be a direct decendant of King David, which he was.
In:
Micha 5:2 - Predicting he would be born in Bethlahem
Hosea 11:1 - Predicting King Herod's slaugher of children to find Him
Isaiah 53:4 - Predicting his curing of the ill and posessed
There's three, all fulfilled in the first three pages of Matthew. And two of the three would be rather noticable.
Well, it can be compared to Pandora, but, however, the old myths also believed a lot of other things, like you could find hades if you looked hard enough, and even escape. And that people could become gods. And that dipping your kid in a certain river would make him invincable. Reseach shows today that it just makes them wet.

With the exception with that is not what it says. We could put the same account to any historical document. For instance, we could believe that the Spanish slaughered the incas and so on, or we could believe that they actually got there to find them all dead, etc.

One might note that that would be an opinion, seeing as the youngest girl, Lucy, is the main character for several of the books. She is, as one might deduce from the name, female. As for Lewis's writings, most of them do not even have characters, for they were letters used on his radio broadcasts during WWII.

There is a difference between selecting what one needs, and ommitting what should be seen.

I experianced God when I was an atheist. So that's not true. I didn't believe in God then, but I was desperate. My best friend was being strangled to death by a contracting seatbelt (it may sound funny now, but it wasn't then.)
"Strange how every account bar one is on their way to heaven." I'm not too sure what you mean by this, but I'm going to guess you are thinking that only one person is going to go to heaven? That's not true either. John 3:16 says quite clearly, "That whomsoever shall believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
Anyone can go to heaven. It's up to them to decide whether they want to. God shows us the path, it's up to us to walk it.

Well, for one thing, it doesn't really matter. All that we know is that it worked. God rounded up all the animals, so He could have easily prevented them from eating each other. In addition, I imagine that Noah probably had packed provisions to provide for them. And for specific types, well, I think that you could probably draw a reasonable conclusion from the size of the ship.

The actual translation of "Thou shalt not kill" would have replaced kill with "murder." You don't murder a fish, or a bird. Anyways, we've judged that it meant don't murder people, and that's what we feel is morally right anyways. You don't feel a pang of guilt when you go fishing, do you?
I don't think there is any verse in the Bible, or any Christian creed that says anything about protecting people from snakes. In fact, just the opposite.
Genesis 3:15 "And I will put emnity between you (snake) and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel."
There you have it.

I think you'll find that the greatest worry for the Apocalypse would be the increase in wars, fires, diseases, and not to mention the progressive determination of peace in the middle east, which was one of the biggies. 'Course, I don't see that happening soon, not in my life time.

That's probably because no one created God. Our knowlege doesn't stretch that far, and as far as I'm concerned, good for it. All that matters is salvation. He has provided that for all of us, and for that I'm grateful.

-Well what proof is there to be a descendant of David?
-"Hey, I was born in Bethelehem... I could use that"
-Curing of the ill/possessed... 'doctors' did that.

Historical record is slightly different as they need more than one source otherwise it's just a theory. They'll have found sailing charts and bullets buried and Incas with holes in their heads etc.

A story, and that's what it is, found underground is only historical as a guide to how times were lived back then: deserts etc. not 'Oh hail Him'

The thing about Narnia is that 'they'-critics say that they're seen to be inferior- she gets lost, she is queen with her brother etc.

But you were desperate. Once again, sub-conscieous hope that someone you cared about was killed is somewhere else and not just a body.

When I'm saying bar one, I'm talking about near-death experiences.

I think you'll find that if you shot a bird, you would, in fact, be murdering it.. It's just that things are twisted. In wars you don't say the soldiers are going out to kill a few men then get killed themselves.

There's no way ALL 'kind' could have fitted on the boat. There's too many and alot being taken up by insects and spiders. And they certainly wouldn't be alive after 40 days and 40 nights especially flies and moths.

It was a christian cult which, if not catholic/Protestant or Mormons etc. is what it is.

If the snake was destined to snap at the human's heel than why are there Boa Constricters? They don't snap. And there are those that have been found with little leg stumps showing they might have evolved.

And name one animal that doesn't live in the Jeruselum/Egypt in the Bible.

"-Well what proof is there to be a descendant of David?"
-According to the Bible, the Romans had those records, which is why Joseph had to go to Bethlahem in the first place. Otherwise, he could have stayed wherever he had come from, with Mary. So there was documentation.
-"Hey, I was born in Bethelehem... I could use that"
-Like I said, two of the three. If you want, I'll get more.
"-Curing of the ill/possessed... 'doctors' did that"
-Actually, doctors did not do that. Remember, leeches were thought to drain bad blood. These were people that could not be cured, lepers and such. Even today we cannot cure leporacy, and before Christ, our priests did not have the power to drive out demons.

Then shouldn't we also find a small box with a lot of evil smells and such? Perhaps brimstone lying about?

Lucy gets lost in the first books, and also is known for her fairness and mercy. I could easily say it was sexist about males, as Edmund was taken advantage of easily by the obviously evil Witch. It's all in your perspective. If you're looking for something to be insulted at in a book, odds are, you'll find it.

Really? Were you there? I think not. You do not know, and thus, you can not judge. If you really think that it was coincidence that an officer, on his way home on a rout that he doesn't take normally, just happens to notice our van (as it was a dark blue and there were no street lights overhead, and not only that, the off ramp sloped down so that we were unseen from nearly all of the interstate,) just caught sight of the van pulled over, and, seeing as it was by odd coincidence the Prom Night of the high schools in that area, as were were away from home, thought that we were pulled over and vomiting, as we were probably drunk.
He found that we instead had a 17 year old being strangled by a malfunctioning seat belt, and easily cut through the belt. Now, I saw the lights flashing right as a "subconciously desired" feeling of relief swept over me. Before I saw the lights. Not after, when I knew everything was going to be all right, but before. Before I believed in God.

God gave Adam and his decendants to use the animals as he would. Genesis 1:28: "...rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
If you look at war, that's all it is. People dying, and getting killed. That's why we can defend ourselves. If someone's trying to kill you, and you kill them out of desperation, it isn't murder. Handy.
Beats me. All I know is that it worked. If it couldn't, wouldn't they have left out the specific dimensions, as it would cause all this trouble. Most scam artists are pretty smart like that.

Remember that religion was made by man in order to worship God. Man is flawed, and often gets bad and stupid ideas, like hip-hop and the whoopy cushion.
God said the snake had legs (or some way of not slithering) in the beginning, if you'll look at Genesis 3:14, God curses the snake to "Crawl on your belly." But, I feel that you are taking the Bible too literally. By snap at your feet, I would make a wild guess that He ment "Attack you."
There are plenty of animals who did not live in Jerusalem/Egypt in the Bible. However, the Ark was not built there. This was before any city was mentioned in the Bible, before the tower of Babel, and before everything was scattered.

So you condone the snapping of little puppies' necks then?

And what was this officer's reason for taking a different route?
There are plenty of coincidences that do not constitute to being acts of God. Noticing things is what a cop is supposed to do. And being Prom night I presume that there would be cause for extra caution and watchful eye.

Remember that god was created by man as part of their evolution process for their brains to cope with this enhanced thinking and conscience, and made 'God' to answer a question of where they came from. Why have there not been primitive forms of cave paintings that worship but instead are of what they did: survive by throwing spears into the nearest running gazelle?

So I take it you go to Church every single Sunday and I assume you must believe in everything the priest/vicar or whoever says! I believe in Wicca and other things. What other beliefs do you have ?

There is nothing to remember. This is the first I've ever heard of it. I've yet to see any evidence that points to this being theory true. We've done extensive research in the past on the subconcious, under stress and no, but there has never been anything that has created a "God force" inside the mind. I, for one, do not feel like a primitive man, I've come to grips with my intelligence much as you have. But I know there is a God, whereas you do not believe there is. By your theory, you too should believe in a God in times of stress, or when you feel overwhelmed. If He's part of an evolutionary process, then He should have been discarded long ago by our continuing growth, probably as early as the time of Christ Himself. Why hasn't He been so discarded? Why do atheists like I was, even today, and others still who aren't, find God and make these ridiculous claims that He exists? That would make no sense.

Because, for one thing, experiences with God, once you've let Him take a prominent role in your life, occur not just in stress. I've been with him on beautiful days. And on rainy days. The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit filling a person and giving them the words they need. I have felt that, too. For pity's sake, I've had oracular dreams, predicting events that I should avoid. God looks after His own, but one only sees it if they choose to look. A large series of conincidences that led to a state police officer finding us a good ten or fifteen minutes away from any other help, just when my friend was dying. I can no more call that luck than I could call the moon cheese.

God is no more subconcious than the sun is, and no more caused by need than our want for warmth and light causes it.

Truth to tell, I really didn't go to church that often, or at least, not on sunday morinings. Saturdays evenings are best, because I can lurk in the balcony where no one else is. This is because I can never, /never/ stay awake through a sermon. They're too long. And nothing that I've not already heard or read. You see, if my pastor (Lutheran, but you got close ) said that the only way to heaven was by drinking poison, and he was told this by God, I would run, very very fast in the other direction.
Despite some Christians that you may have met elsewhere, I've thought about things. And I like logic, and facts. I'm not particularly gullable.
What I believe is that God has promised salvation for every man, woman and child, despite whatever sins or crimes they have committed, because He sent His son to die for all of us, a sacrifice in our place. Not only that, that His son rose again from the dead, and waits for us now. If only we would believe.
And, I would assume that you are a witch. If so, I would ask forgiveness of you, for what my ancestors have done. Witch burnings! Rrrr... idiots.
"Abhor the sin, not the sinner." The surest way to prevent someone's salvation would be, in my opinion, killing them.

Just a quick post; as a (very) newly converted atheist, I don't yet have the necessary scholarship to argue in depth.

It was talked earlier about healing - apparently only done by hoaky old US televangelists... So I have to share this story!

After a couple of car crashes (neither my fault!!), I was left with serious whiplash injuries. The first accident, 10 years ago, was when we hit a car side on at about 30 mph. As I was looking out of the side window at the time, my injuries were concentrated on the junction of my neck and shoulder on the right hand side. Muscle tearing, general whiplash...I even had nerve damage meaning that sensation was lost in my right hand, specifically my thumb and first two fingers. I should point out I was 13 at the time.

I had about 9 months of physio, various anti-inflammatory drugs...it got better but never got back to normal. I had to be careful about carrying heavy loads, I couldn't write for long periods, I had trouble lifting my arm above my head and had to be careful around sharp/hot things (as I would injure myself and not notice).

Anyway, last March I was in a queue of traffic when I got violently shunted from behind. And this time around, I couldn't even drive a car unless it had very heavily power assisted steering! I also lost a lot of forward shoulder movement and my neck movement was reduced. I had 6 months of physio and exercises to do at home, as well as yet more anti-inflammatory drugs.

And even after all that, the phyiotherapist admitted that I was never going to regain full use of my arm or full feeling in my hand.

Last week I was at an Alpha course where we talked about God healing. One of the Christians announced that he'd been told one of us had a problem right shoulder. I hadn't mentioned this to anyone in the group, although I fully acknowledge that he may have seen it in my body language. However I tend to minimise use of that side out of years of practice!

I said it was me, and he asked if I'd like to be prayed for. I said OK, on the basis that I didn't know if it'd work, and why not?

Him and a couple of others prayed and laid hands on me. Immediately I felt a warmth and loosening in my shoulder, and an icy tingling in the corner where the nerves were constricted.

After 5 minutes I'd regained 90% of my movement (up from 70%) and 90% of the feeling back. It also felt a great deal more easy to move; before it always felt tight and constricted.

Just over a week later, movement is back to 100% (well, the same as my previously good left shoulder) and feeling is 98%. One of my (probably very annoying) habits was to pull teabags out of cups of very hot tea, as I couldn't be bothered to get a spoon. I tried that yesterday and nearly flung the teabag across the room as I couldn't hold it!

I'm an engineer, and I'm also aware of the power of positive thought. but even I find that struggles here! It just doesn't fit for me.

So, everyday when I wake up, I thank God for healing me!!! It sealed His existence for me, and so many other things which have happened (mostly small, but nice) have compounded my faith.

Mystrunner - I fully accept your story about your friend. You also speak a lot of good sense!

Enough ramblings for now, anyway.

*nods*

When He chooses to work, He makes Himself known!

I can and won't live my life any longer, refusing to admit to there being a God who obviously's there.

That was my reasoning; when He shouts, you've got to listen!

The scary and wondrous thing is looking back through your life and picking out where He was at work before...

My boyfriend is a Christian, has been for some time, and people seem to be assuming that he's made me do it. In fact we'd been going out well over a year before I thought about doing Alpha, and the church that's running it is a different one anyway.

Well, people will assume anything rather than admit to God... oh well. I've never much understood the whole Church anymore. Too much new ceremony. You know, denominations, etc.