h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

No it's Ok, it's not a touchy subject, at the moment i'm sort of open to everything. Um, I don't know about the evolution theory. Scientifically and rationally much of it makes sense, but there's nothing to prove it. Christianity's the same, it does make sense, but you can't prove it, it's a personal conviction.

The problem I have with evolution is that in the end it can't explain where everything started. I read something about how matter and anti-matter somehow formed out of the time-space fluctuations, but i don't see how the "time-space" got there in the first place - where did they come from? And i also find the giant leap between apes and humans hard to attribute to evolution. It's kind of insulting to think that all our emotions and dreams and loves are nothing but neural connections that evolved over time. And if evolution is supposed to improve nature as it goes along, why do we have this ability for self awareness that makes humans a lot more miserable and psychologically unsound that animals?

The problem is that in the end nothing can be proved, it's all just opinion. I disagree with you when u say Christianity/Judaism only survived cause they're vague, I think they've survived because nto only can they not be disproved but they have as much merit as evolution.

No it's Ok, it's not a touchy subject, at the moment i'm sort of open to everything. Um, I don't know about the evolution theory. Scientifically and rationally much of it makes sense, but there's nothing to prove it. Christianity's the same, it does make sense, but you can't prove it, it's a personal conviction.

The problem I have with evolution is that in the end it can't explain where everything started. I read something about how matter and anti-matter somehow formed out of the time-space fluctuations, but i don't see how the "time-space" got there in the first place - where did they come from? And i also find the giant leap between apes and humans hard to attribute to evolution. It's kind of insulting to think that all our emotions and dreams and loves are nothing but neural connections that evolved over time. And if evolution is supposed to improve nature as it goes along, why do we have this ability for self awareness that makes humans a lot more miserable and psychologically unsound that animals?

The problem is that in the end nothing can be proved, it's all just opinion. I disagree with you when u say Christianity/Judaism only survived cause they're vague, I think they've survived because nto only can they not be disproved but they have as much merit as evolution.

So what about you? I get the feeling you don't agree with the bible, do you beleive the evolution theory?

I believe in the evolution theory...


If you mean where we all come from evolution wise... it's the bacteria that first crawled out of the sea...

But if you mean the question that will never be answered: Where did the universe come from... Well I've just said it can't be answered...

Either way (biased opinion here) evolution is the much more sensible sound of thinking where we actually earned our position now...
or the creationist theory which I think is ridiculous...
We're all part of one big incestuous family derived from a guy thrown into a garden and a woman from a rib (which in fact gives reason for patriarchy) AND once again in the form of a guy, his wife... his three sons and their wives and a big giant flood...

If we got punished for eating the apple from the tree of knowledge (how convieniently most people's favourite fruit) then why are the other animals designed to eat each other?

Anyway... if there is a god up there (which has been completely turned aroung with space travel) there is the question of what made that god and always having been there is never going to be an acceptable answer..

But if you're Christian/Jew... and DON'T believe that everything in the Bible is true then what are you going on to believe in a diety?

....another reason to the survival of God (not gods) is missionaries/priests and 'holy' wars that forced people into Christianity...

look at medievil times... it was only people like priests who could read... and it was them who read out 'the Bible' as opposed the peasants reading it themselves... of course there's no-one to say that they didn't just pick out relevant bits to go toward the wealthy church.

I don't know if the Adam and Eve story can be taken on face value. It is possible that it's symbolic - Hebrews were 'picture people' and didn't care much for details.

The apple is a common misconception, the bible just says "fruit". I think animals also began to eat each other after the fall of man, when Adam and Eve started working for food.

And why can't the "Where did it all begin?" question be answered? Doesn't it worry you that the evolution theory doesn't have an explanation? An inherent part of the concept of God is that he is imnipotent and eternal, and lives in a realm different to ours, which explains why people feel or experience God but don't see or hear Him. No-one created him because He's eternal

I don't know if the Adam and Eve story can be taken on face value. It is possible that it's symbolic - Hebrews were 'picture people' and didn't care much for details.

The apple is a common misconception, the bible just says "fruit". I think animals also began to eat each other after the fall of man, when Adam and Eve started working for food.

And why can't the "Where did it all begin?" question be answered? Doesn't it worry you that the evolution theory doesn't have an explanation? An inherent part of the concept of God is that he is imnipotent and eternal, and lives in a realm different to ours, which explains why people feel or experience God but don't see or hear Him. No-one created him because He's eternal

I agree with you on the Holy wars stuff, it was wrong and probably wouldn't have been endorsed by God! And there probably were a lot of people "acting for God" who manipulated it and used it for themselves, but I don't think that can be attributed to God, or used to disprove him, it's just shows the inherent fault and selfishness in humans

I think most Christians do believe all that's in the bible (i can't answer for Jews, i don't know). Granted for some it's just blind and stubborn belief, but many have challanged it and considered it and come out firmly agreeing with it, There's been a lot of research into the autenticity of the bible, and there's been nothing to prove it was changed or manipulated over time.

There! you prove my point about most our our minds not being able to handle there not being a divine 'beginning'...


The all-powerful god does not work when it comes its own creation... it can not have always been... the same with evolution theory... there had to have been a time when all there was was 'nothing'... but the scientific explanations give REASON... What does the religious do? God created us because he could and he loved us is no answer... there is no desire, aspiration... all there seems to be is 'oh, I've just had an idea...'


as for the Bible... find a couple of scrolls in a hole and there's suddenly moses who has quick writing session with God..

The way i see it is that Christianity/judaism have survived is because the wars etc. MAKE the people think the way they do...

Look at WW2... if we hadn't won there's the suggestion that Hitler could be in control...
imagine that.. a church with a sword and copy of 'Mein Kampf' and NO-ONE to disagree... just throw a couple of Nazi missionaries over to Brazil for example to get the 'outsiders' who have never had the 'privilege'..

Get told the same thing over and over and people begin to believe it... even easier if you play soothing music, close your eyes and are already hoping that what is being said is truth as opposed to the arguement...

As for jews they believe that the Old Testement is true and are still awaiting the arrival of the 'messiah'

Ok, so our minds can't get around the concept of no beginning. So what? Why can't God have always been? Are our minds so all-encompassing that if we can't understand it it doesn't exist?

What's the reason for evolution? Why does everything try to improve? Where is it heading, and where did it come from? As for why God created humans, some say it was a longing for relationship. maybe it was just cause He could. The same reason people have children, or the reason artists paint. The point is there was an alive mind with a longing to create behind it, whereas in the evolution theory there was no inspiration, no desire.

So if Christianity/Judaism just survived because of war or propaganda, why do people in tiny countries that are visited by missionaries become christians? In China Christianity is illegal, but it has the faster growing christian population in the world. No-one made these people become christians - it's against their Buddhist culture and they risk death. But they still become christians.

Anyway, i don't see how the christian message is pushed down anyone's throats in the western world. All university study takes evolution for granted. You hear much more in support of atheism than for christianity or Judaism.

And the books in the bible were sacred text back before Jesus' day, plus all the books were carefully picked by monks or something, so it's not like it was thrown together at the last minute.

Well the reason for creation evolution is long winded and goes back to the Big Bang theory with the formation of the planet, it's molecules, the seas and bacteria.. which is too long winded to go into but will I have to.

As for the western world.
Were you educated in the 'alternatives' by which I mean was it mother or father saying what they believe, but here's what other people think, and you getting to know of other opinions growing up or was it: Ma/Pa think that so i'll think it too... Oh look churches... everyone else believes it so it must be true.

Missionaries, they go to places.. how convienient that they are not 'western civilised' so must be taught english... Here, have a Bible and get taught to read...

We also have the divisions of Christianity... protestants believe this, catholics believe this, mormons believe this plus THIS etc. etc.

"That makes a lot more sense that, so I'll think that instead"

Let's see how far people can get in life now if they go around saying the world is flat...

The problem for both is that there is no PROOF... and on both sides it is all guess work..

"Evolution must be wrong because Darwin repented on his death bed..."
In the middle of angry Christians and continually dismissed it's no wonder!

"Divine Creation must be wrong because things like so similar!"

Yeah i agree there's no proof for either side. I've heard the rumour than Darwin denied evolution but don't think he really did, anyway even if he did it wouldn't change the content, it still is a logical theory.

Actually yes, i was brought up by parents who explained the alternatives and let me make up my own mind. People who blindly believe something and try to push it down another's throat have always annoyed me, and my parents aren't likt that, they have reasons they believe what they do but they let me have my own. So I'm trying to make up my own mind, but i still think Christianity can't be nrushed off lightly. What about you, were ur parents religious? Or did they have a grudge against the church like so many people seem to have?

I don't have too many problems with evolution, its the whole big bang thing that annoys me. where did the planet and molecules and seas that u mentioned come from? No-one explains it, its always avoided on the pretence that its too complicated to explain to my pathetic intellect.

Ur kinda generalising missionaries. I know a couple who have given up their civilised life to save children in Thailand from prostitution. They don't push western culture down their necks but support the dying tribal culture. Many modern day missionaraies do teach english because countries allow them to enter because english is such a popular language, but they don't teach them from a bible or whatever. A lotta missionaries were like that 100yrs or more ago, and i don't agree with the cultural take-over of tribal people that was done in the name of Christianity. But times have changed and it's not fair to judge all missionaries by their behaviour.

I don't know about the whole denominations thing, i think it's pretty pointless, i call myself a christian and thats about how specific it gets. Generally i think mots of the problems u and others have with christianity it due to the christians themselves and the screw upsd they've made. Christians, like those in the crusades, have been so greedy and self rightous that they've given christianity a bad name. But people aren't perfect and i don't think it means God doesn't exist

Oh dear...

Well, for one thing, I daresay there has to be a God. And, I can't see any downsides to Christianity. People make this far, /far/ more complicated than this needs to be. After all, man created nearly all the ceremony involved in it. In the end, man created religion, and therein lies a problem. People tend to see religion, and mistake that for God.

What you should realize is that none of the hows and whys matter the slightest. In the end, it is God reaching out His hand to a drowning race, and offering us salvation, for the slightest of prices. How could any person say that that is horrible?

God gives man free will so that He may enjoy being with us, as a father enjoys being with his children. A father will sit at dinner with his sons/daughers, and sure, they may not behave perfectly all the time, but he's willing to forgive that, out of love. Without free will, he might as well be eating dinner with puppets. It is His love that is our blessing, and our hope.

Slightest of prices?

Giving up your soul and have complete and utter worship to this god is a small price...

In the case of creation, why would a deity create us for the sole purpose of serving and love?
By this logic, we're pets... we're a guinea pig project, a test to see what he can do...
You can still have free will without evil: you can still choose between helping an old woman across the street a miss your bus or get to work in time to earn your money to help your family... either way there is no evil...

Why would a god create evil? Why would a god create hell? If he didn't create it then Lucifer did which means the dark one is at least second best to the universe if God allows this place to exist which does not contain evil?

The only difference between atheists and (in this case) Christians is that believe the same thing but in a different way...

Christians 'know' that atheists are seeing a divine creation interpreted as scientific phenomina and atheists 'know' that all Christians are doing is giving a series of scientific events a name...

Why have children, then? Why not, as you say, buy a gerbil?

God gives us free will in the hopes that we will use it for good, and not evil. And He did not create evil. Evil was created by others, like Lucifer, by disobeying God. Lucifer tried to overthrow God, and then tried to kill us. Personally, I'm not too inclined to pity him, as he is the whole reason we're having this discussion.

And it is not a large price. Showing respect, and after all, you do not lose your soul. You keep it, rather than losing it to Satan in the end.

Well I personally would have a kid (through a wife, not me!) as... hmm... how can I word this... A product of husband/wife that embodies themselves and will live on after death and continue thus to keep a part of us... alive...


Tell me, in what way was Satan punished for trying to overthrow God?

If God is so... righteous... then why does he NEED to be worshipped... It's apparently not good enough to be a good person but if you are non-Christian you'll go to Hell...
Why does a 'perfect' being need respect... he shouldn't care... He embodies everything...
But as far as I'm concerned, 'God' is just a product of a religion that has happened to survive longer than others because it is not straightforward such as the Greek gods etc.
But the Bible does give Heaven a size... which from when the Earth was will be pretty full by now...


If this god is so benevolent then why in Job does he GAMBLE with the life of a man with the Devil? He LET'S THE DEVIL KILL JOB'S WIFE, KIDS, ANIMALS JUST TO PROVE THE GUY HAS FAITH! If anything, this god is egotistical! You'd think there would be nothing to prove.
How forgiving is God when he breaks down the walls of Jericho for the people to storm in and slaughter them...
Moses: let's bunk of a few Eygptian heathens in the Nile...

Christianity is only around through the religion being forced upon people during the Middle Ages with monarchs and wars then got taken to America where the people there were merely forced out to make way for the puritans.

Tell me please if, according to Christianity, if I through what I'm saying will go to hell...

Religion is slowly drifting away because science, surely but slowly is building up evidence that proves things that were said in the Bible were wrong (doesn't mean it's right though)... Outside of science the Bible is wrong... Mary was not a virgin, it was an imaginative concept derived from the translation of the hebrew Bible which states 'young woman'

This is not meant to come across as offensive and if it does I apologise but I am grateful for a more consistant arguement than posts appearing every few weeks...

But if I may ask a personal question, which division of Christianity are you part of: Catholics, Protestants, creationists, cult/sect..?

Well, first of all, I am a Christian. Technically, protestant, but I've never really related to any particular group. I base my faith on the teachings of the Bible, not any particular sub-sect. And religion is a by-product of God, not the other way around. If there is no-one to believe in, then, by logic, no religion would spring up. Just like the egyptian belief in a sun god didn't create the sun...

Satan was punished by being cast out of heaven. I believe that to be a very great punishment. That'd be something near finding true love, and never being allowed to know it again, or finding contentment, and having that removed from your life. Terrible, indeed, for one who saught to rule the lives and souls of every creature ever created.

God doesn't need to be worshipped. He'll be there even if every last person on earth is dead. And he is righteous, because he is perfect by the moral standards he engrained in our hearts. And yes, being a non-Christian means basically that you do not believe in God's giving His son for your own salvation. It's like being given a bus ticket. It's up to you to use the bus, and it will leave, one day.

And why would you want respect? Every sentient being, as far as I can tell, cares about something. That's rather heartless to say He shouldn't care if anyone respects Him. I do! He gave me this world to live in.

As with Job, God knew that there was no gamble. God had faith in Job, because of Job's great faith in Him. And Job was not worried, instead giving thanks for what he still had left. And God rewarded Job for his faith. I might note, also, that from what I can tell, the devil worked through men, and as such, men committed the sins against Job. I think you will find the same thing happens all the time today. Nearly all of the world's evil stems from the actions of men who abandon the righteousness that God would have us follow, rather then from God, as you seem to suggest. God loves us.

Jericho, hmm... well what I could say for that is that the Lord promised His people a city, after wandering in the desert for fourty years. Why should we not hate America for Hiroshima? And Nagisaki? As if my own kinsmen have not done much, much worse in the name of a lesser cause?
And for Moses, I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure you might not be considering that the Israelites were kept in complete slavery, and were worked to death building Egypt's wonders. How many tens of thousands died then? And, when they were allowed to go, and were about to be slaughtered by a pharaoh who decided that if they wouldn't be slaves to him, they'd be corpses, God delivered them from certain massacre. I think, that if you were a newly-freed slave looking upon the giant hoard of chariots, you'd be glad of a bit of divine intervention, hmmm? If God hadn't interfered, I'm willing to bet that you'd be saying, 'where was God for them then?' or something to that extent.

I'm willing to bet that Christianity also survived through the eastern Roman empire, Byzantium, which survived the fall of Rome, and not only that, I see nothing wrong with Christain monks preserving reading and writing. So what if it was in the form of the Bible? There weren't too many other books monks were concerned with, and besides, it wasn't as if nearly anyone could read! Most kings wouldn't be able to if you cut off their pointer finger.
It was not forced, just like physics isn't forced on students. Students wish to learn how things work, and aetheism hadn't taken off, because it would have died for lack of evidence. God, however has had plenty. Read a bit about Saint Joah D'Arc, and the revelations that led her to finding Charle's the Great's sword buried underneath an abandoned church. I doubt that was luck.

In the end, it's up to you wheather you are going to Hell. Your choice, my friend, not mine. If you don't want to, it's so easy not to. If you do, the same applies.

I'm pretty certain that science has never proven that Mary was not a virgin. In fact, I'd be rather amused if they tried, because, as far as I'm aware, we have no idea where she is buried, and the Bible makes it clear that Joseph was going to divorce Mary for not being virgin, if it weren't for Gabriel. Read Matthew 1:20-25 if you want proof. Do you really think Joseph was going to divorce Mary for not being a 'young woman'? When it speaks of her being with child? And mentions him never sleeping with her until Christ was born?

And I am glad to speak with you. This is my way of trying to sway you, if it ever will succeed with anyone. I was once aethiest, but I've found Christ, and it's the first time I've ever seen life so clearly. The joy God gives those who truly trust in him is enough to make me want to cry from sheer joy, and I am not simply making that up...
I would ask you to truly listen to what I am saying, and not simply close your mind and your heart. There will always be that voice inside that tells you of how little I really know, and that I'm just another one of 'them'... stop for a while, look at that voice a bit, too, and consider what it is saying, and really, why it is saying that. It won't like that too much. It may even let you alone for a bit. Then, think, and ponder, if you will.
Just asking a favor of you.

PS - (Thanks for listening.)

In the case of the 'young woman' it was what the Hebrew (original) Bible said. Surely that is more accurate than the translated which got read out to the people who couldn't read... and you got told you would go to Hell if you would not go to Church every week.
The Crusades enforced Christianity when fighting for the Holy Land.
The Normans kicked out the Celts and thus made their religion more predominant: don't do what we do, you die.

Same for Henry VIII. He forced people to be Catholic because the people were whatever the monarch was and bounced between the two establishments.

Back to your answer about my 'examples'... in the case of Moses, this god is enforcing his law onto the people by killing off the opposition... The Eygptians, the people of Jericho. I will give you a city... why not a new city and not, technically, someone else's.
Job, how did he get rewarded? But the point is that god still gambled. He let everyone Job cared about die to PROVE himself to his adversary.

So (rhetorical) how/why was Lucifer able to get himself out of heaven is he was experiencing perfection... He shouldn't have needed a want to challenge unless there was something about the system which he didn't like, which is supposed to happen in Heaven where it is meant to be paradise... How can have a jealousy when you're in perfection?

As for preserving the writing, great. As long as reproductions of the text are copies and not slight changes ala Chinese Whispers which completely changes the cotent slowly over time and replication.

Eygptians. They looked up at some point and said: how does that big ball of heat fly across the sky? Oh there must be something pulling it. Hey it goes the same way everyday... it must be someONE pulling it!
Religions are just explainations for things that peoples do not understand, namely answering the questions of how and why...

Back to Hell. Why does hell exist? Surely there isn't a need for the place if not getting into heaven is bad enough.
Why would this god allow the showing of another 'power'?
Somehow this fallen angel is able to create this anti-heaven, a place where spirits go INSTEAD. Why would this god allow this power to be shown and that it is equal to his power in how anti what it is that he does is (If that makes sense).
This Devil is able to get what god is trying to do but the opposite (get souls on his turf)! If I believed it, I would be helping him right now through what I'm saying!. Satanists are another example... he's got people to worship him!
We've also got a battle of the Sons going on! People are more interested in seeing movies about the Omen than King of Kings!

Just because something is written down, doesn't mean it's right. There's no proof that the Bible is true. For all we know there is a God who, after we die, tell us that we've got it all wrong and shouldn't have been done it that way!

In closing (for this convo!), I do not think people of religious belief as one of 'them'. I think of thses people as those who truly believe in what they are saying and I commend that, I admire that and I respect that. One either side we're just part of an arguement: one side or the other and it takes a lot to change that which I don't even bother.
But when it comes to cults I do not respect that. My mate has recently joined one of the things and has became a different person (completely) and I know he's been brainwashed where they see 'miraculous' healings and a load of evangalistic rubbish...

BUT, when I die and IF I don't become non-existant and appear before a great light that is some kind of god and I'm wrong I guarantee that I would apologise.
I would apolgise for for being wrong but not believing and would take the consequences whatever they may be.
And I would hope if there was a god (I'm aware that I don't believe in one but I'm open-minded) I would get judged based on being a good and moral person and not how I believe because that would be insulting to think of an almighty force as being that selfish..!

Well, for one thing, it doesn't matter one whit what the originally meaning was. All that matters is that He lived a perfect life, was murdered by us, and lives forever, having given His life to allow us to join him in paradice. Besides, many words have more than one meaning, and young woman would more than likely been synonomous with virgin, as nearly 100% of young women were virgins. If they weren't, and were still not married, they were divorced, AKA stoned to death. Not saying it's right, but all signs point to virginity.

And the Crusades were not enforcing Christianity. They were destroying people who knew nothing about Christ, dooming them. They were possibly the dumbest thing early Christians did. I wouldn't justify it, any more than I justify Matt Hale's 'United Church of The Creator' which is a neo-nazis group. Henry the XIII was a madman, and a murderer.

The original meaning is very important! Since your Bible is supposed to the word of god there can only be one meaning and if it changes, that's wrong and you're following inaccuracy or something that didn't happen at all!

And I apologise for the last convo as I didn't think it was that long! It was a guide entry in itself!