A Conversation for DEVON'S NEW FLAG

Devon Flag & St Petroc

Post 301

ryan_sealey

OK then theres seems to be consensus to call it St Petrocs flag but we should definately still emphasize the the fact that its Devons flag, at least untill its more established eh?

I think we all decided ages ago in this discussion that Petroc was the man for the job, there definately isnt anybody else i can think of or find on the internet.

St Petroc's cross it is then.

Ozzie Exile, I'll email you my new address when and if i ever find anywhere to live. Property's moving pretty fast up here at the moment.

Good news about the sales, i wonder how many other companies are manufacturing it, and if any shops are stocking it?

cheers then.


St Petrocs cross

Post 302

ryan_sealey

OK then theres seems to be consensus to call it St Petrocs flag but we should definately still emphasize the the fact that its Devons flag, at least untill its more established eh?

I think we all decided ages ago in this discussion that Petroc was the man for the job, there definately isnt anybody else i can think of or find on the internet.

St Petroc's cross it is then.

Ozzie Exile, I'll email you my new address when and if i ever find anywhere to live. Property's moving pretty fast up here at the moment.

Good news about the sales, i wonder how many other companies are manufacturing it, and if any shops are stocking it?

cheers then.


St Petrocs cross

Post 303

ryan_sealey


So everyone is comfortable with St Petroc being the patron saint of Devon then?
there are more dedications to him in Devon but when you search for him on the net (i used google) he is always referred to in association with our neighbors.

Im guessing this could just be a slighty distorted version of history, as we seem to encounter when searching for anything linking Devon with its celtic heritage.


Devon Flag & St Petroc

Post 304

MrFlag

>> I would be interested to know if anyone else is making the flags now.<<

I know of one other flagmaker who'd like to be making them... because they phoned me to check the design. I haven't heard of anyone else actually doing that though.

>> I notice that Mr Flag is now claiming to be the first <<

If anyone thinks that claim has even the faintest possibility of not being true, please say so and we'll remove it. I didn't think it was in doubt.

>> so that indicates that someone else is out there as well. <<

It indicates our assumption that someone else is - probably.


St Petroc's cross

Post 305

Davyth

I have always thought St Petroc would be the patron Saint of Devon. There is a church dedicated to him in the heart of our capital city, Exeter, which just goes to show how much he influenced Devon during his life and long after. I think he deserves a land and flag just like George, Andrew, Dewi and Piran!


Davyth


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 306

Big JG - Landlord of The Editor's Arms

After we had flown the flag at the Devon County Show I had a call from another manufacturer (whose SW base was Taunton) saying they'd had several requests and asking where they get the design so they could start producing the flag too.

I put them in touch with Mr Flag so I think you are quite right in your assumption that there are now others producing it.

We've also taken a call from a company who plan to make smaller (sandcastle-type) flags - so hopefully they'll be all over Devon's beaches before the end of the summer too!

It's great news and we received some of the bumper stickers today which are now on all the BBC Devon Web Team's cars.

Now I'm investigating the possibility of having downloadable logos for mobile phones.

By the way there are some more photos of the flag being flown in our gallery at http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/discovering/devon_flag/frontpage.shtml

Cheers

JG


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 307

parrferris

Love the animation, JG! smiley - cool


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 308

MrFlag

I'd like to share with you the following email received from [Personal details removed by Moderator] . It is one of several that are similar, but this is one of the best. This is unedited - the words are not mine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"To 'Charles of Belgravia',

I notice that you are covertly promoting UKIP policies by marketing a colourful cloth as a ' national flag' and attaching links on the associated promotional material to the political websites of anti-regionalisation fundamentalists. [See sample attachment].It is significant that there no links on your site to any websites associated with the political movements of Wales and Cornwall.

In order to dream up some semblance of regional identity, Devon Countyists are attempting to usurp Cornwall's unique identity. You will see from the attached link that much of this involves denuding Cornwall's Celtic distinctiveness, and then exaggerating/inventing a fake Devon distinctiveness on a pattern that has stood the test of time for Celtic Cornwall. Only since UKIP reared its ugly head have Europhobes busied themselves reinforcing English county identities by inventing bogus histories and symbology.

Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 it is an offence to market a product in a way that can be construed as misleading the public. Likewise, all sales talk must be true.

You are marketing to an international audience a coloured cloth as being the flag of the supposed ancient "Celtic nation" of Devon. I would advise you that as the term "Celtic nation" cannot in all reason be applied to the County of Devon, this marketing ploy fails to meet the terms of Act.

I shall urge all in the genuine Celtic nations not to do any business with your organisation.

John Angarrack

To all who receive this email, pass on to our Celtic cousins.
To witness mrflag propaganda log on to: http://www.mrflag.com/display_product_category.asp?id=61>

Of course, Devon propagandists overlook the fact that Athelstan is supposed to have driven all the Celts out of their English county."
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 309

Ozzie Exile

Dear Charles of Belgravia,

Thank you for sharing Angarrak's rather amusing correspondence.

As I am sure you appreciate, we have no idea who UKIP are (if they exist at all) but clearly Angarrak would rather restrain Devonian's from freely expressing their sense of identity in a way which he would find totally oppressive if that same objective were applied against Cornwall.

Fortunately that does not seem to be the view of all Cornish folk, at least based on a number of supportive emails that I have received (via my website).




Flying the flag for Devon

Post 310

Frankie Roberto

UKIP = UK Independence Party (I think).

Unfortunately, flags often become associated with political/nationalist movements - so it might be difficult for people to realise that Devon has a flag almost just for the fun and local pride of it. So it's one thing you have to be careful to avoid.

Frankie
P.S How is bumper sticker campaign going?


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 311

MrFlag

>> So it's one thing you have to be careful to avoid. <<

No no! One should try to avoid these things. How would we ever get into the papers otherwise?


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 312

Ozzie Exile

But who wants to get into the papers if the price is that you have to be a serious politician? Next we will have to be kissing babies and going to 'regionalist' political conferences. God preserve us.




Flying the flag for Devon

Post 313

Ozzie Exile

Oh yes, and the bumper sticker campaign is going well.

About 50 sold so far with orders for about another 90.

Sales would be better, some some disreputable flag manufacturer is giving them away!!


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 314

Davyth

I think I have found our friend Mr Angarrack's website. His website makes for interesting reading. If you go to the have your say section you will see our friend from the Wessex regionalist Nick from Bristol has been stirring things up trying to get the Cornish Nationalists to join him in his quest to absorb Devon, into Wessex and exclude Cornwall. Makes quite an interesting read though, especially for people interested in local history and Cornish fundementalism.
I also think Mr Nick in Wessex is jealous of our flag campaign which he slates.
I was thinking about emailing him, I think I will later. Ozzie exile you might want to show him your website, I'm sure it would be like waving a red rag at a bull.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kernow_tgg/TGGhome.html


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 315

MrFlag

My (thoroughly unprofessional) advice is that if you have a red rag, get waving it. The worst (best) that can happen is you'll start a blazing row between the Cornish and Devonish (sp?) about their flags, polarise opinions, and encourage more people to choose and support their respective camps. Good for Devon and, if I'm honest, good for flag sales.

Sorry about our dastardly free bumper stickers. The good news is that there are only 250 of them and most of that number will be sent retrospectively to people from all around the world who've already had Devon flags from us. Once they're gone I've no plans to do a re-run.

Next question, is there a 'Devon Day' or some weekend or public holiday which passes for one? I was toying with the idea of getting some bunting made - or possibly some handwavers - to keep the ball rolling. What does anyone think?

PS: Someone sent me an email wondering if I'm from Devon myself. For the record, no I'm not. I'm Welsh - but I know not everyone has that luxury. My father lives in Devon though if that counts?


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 316

Plymouth Exile

Mr Flag,

If your father lives in Devon, you qualify for being an honorary Devonian. You may now wave the Devon Flag.

Plymouth Exile


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 317

Kerswell

Angarrak seems to have all the skills necessary for a mob 'stand-over' man. My reaction to such tactics is to consider what Angarrak says - and then do exactly the opposite on principle.

Mr Flag - congratulations for dealing with the likes of these!

I looked at Davyth's links to the TGG site. I have seen this before, and do not like some of the extreme views shown there. However I am not sure that Jim Pengelly and John Angarrak are one and the same.

As to a 'Devon day' the only days that spring to mind are St Petrock's day (4 June) and the Devon County Show (about the same time). Sadly just past.

But then again - who needs an official day??


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 318

Plymouth Exile

Mr Flag (or should I say Charles of Belgravia - I didn't know that Belgravia was in Wales)

As a Welshman you can now see what we Devonians have had to put up with from the extreme Cornish Nationalists like John Angarrak. He is clearly not aware that you are Welsh and that your company is Welsh, so he has put his foot in it by asking all his Celtic cousins to not do any business with your organisation.

When Mr. Angarrak refers to: "Devon propagandists overlook the fact that Athelstan is supposed to have driven all the Celts out of their English county", he is misquoting the writings of William of Malmesbury (who lived 200 years after Athelstan), when he stated that Athelstan expelled the Britons from Exeter and fixed the Devon/Cornwall boundary at the Tamar. There was no mention of driving the Celts across the Tamar into Cornwall, but the Nationalists have always insisted upon this (mis)interpretation.

Devonians (and reputable historians) who have studied this period of history have long realised that no such expulsion from Devon ever occurred. One only has to look at the place names in Devon to realise that many are of Celtic origin. One of the most common place-name roots in Devon is the word 'combe', meaning a closed ended valley. This word equates precisely with the Welsh word 'cwm' (it is even pronounced the same way).

The crunch came for the Cornish argument when recent DNA studies concluded that the population of the whole of South West England (not just Cornwall) is predominantly Celtic. This 'dangerous revelation' was just too much for the Cornish extremists to bear. The E-Mails you have received represent their desperate response.

Plymouth Exile (from Pennycomequick, a corruption of Pen-y-cum-gwyk, or 'The head of the creek valley)

PS. There is a small village in Dyfed called 'Penycwm', or 'The head of the valley'.


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 319

Plymouth Exile

Dear me, poor Old Nick (pun intended) Xylas really must be getting desperate if he has turned to Jim Pengelly (alias TGG) for help (see Davyth’s link). I remember duelling with TGG on the BBC Cornish ‘Independence’ site, before the BBC changed it and it went cold. I say duel, but he only stuck his head above the parapet three times before it was shot off. His web site may be one of the most vitriolic Cornish Nationalist sites, but when it comes to arguing his point using verifiable historical data, he is a novice.

As I am the “very vociferous individual” to whom Jim refers, I was quite surprised to discover how much he had in fact learnt during our brief encounter. Of course he has now had time to lick his wounds and concoct more unsubstantiated responses. He now dismisses my DNA evidence for substantial Celtic survival in Devon by trying to say that he has never implied a ‘racial’ divide at the Tamar. A brief glance through his web site will convince any reasonable person that this is not the case, as it is crammed full of references to Cornish Celts and ‘evil Anglo-Saxons’ in Devon.

He is now referring to the term ‘Celtic’ as a cultural and linguistic one, arguing that Devon is culturally and linguistically poles apart from Cornwall. Again he has put the blinkers on and ignored the cultural and linguistic parallels, which have been so ably compiled by Ozzie Exile in his excellent web site.

I was very disappointed to see that he has reverted to misquoting William of Malmesbury again, by talking about the ‘Cornish’ being expelled from Exeter by Athelstan, and the fixing of the boundary between Cornwall and England. He tries to substantiate this by referring to the Charter of Edmund (944) in which Edmund refers to himself as "….king of the English and ruler of this province of the Britons". Where, may I ask, does Edmund refer specifically to the Cornish?

The rest of Jim’s reply to Nick consists of speculative historical ramblings and conspiracy theories, with no references made to historical evidence, and so can be dismissed as the product of a disturbed mind.

Nick Xylas does not fare any better in his attempts to show that Devon is an integral part of Wessex. In the Document “The Case for Wessex”, Reference 30 is the Wessex Tourism web site. According to Wessex Tourism, Wessex consists of: “Very broadly, Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire, Hampshire (the rough boundaries in 1042!)”

According to both the Wessex Regionalists and the Cornish Nationalists, the date 1042 is 106 years after Athelstan set the Western boundary of Wessex at the Tamar. If this was the case, how come that the 1042 boundaries do not include Devon? We seem to have to wait until Tudor times before the cartographer John Speed (erroneously) included Devon in Wessex; 500 years after Wessex ceased to exist. The Cornish Nationalists like to quietly overlook the many recent maps, which also show Cornwall as an integral part of Wessex.

I am sorry Nick and Jim; you will have to do a lot better than that. We Devonians were not born yesterday.

Plymouth Exile


Flying the flag for Devon

Post 320

Kerswell

Plymouth Exile,

I was shocked and surprised to think that you were identified as a 'very vociferous individual'. My goodness!!!

I agree that the TGG website is a home of many a misguided and extremist point of view.

I also agree with what you say about history but (as you know) my point of view that that whilst history is relevant background, the most important thing is the 'here and now' (which maybe shaped by history etc..)

Clearly in the 'here and now' a growing number of Devonians have expressed a desire to embrace the Devon flag. Obviously this is because they wish to express their pride in Devon.

There is no enthusiasm for Wessex and the Wessex equivalent flag (but then who has, even in deepest Dorset??) However, that is their choice.

Neither is there a desire by Devonians to usurp the Cornish flag or identity, but clearly Jim Pengelly and John Angarrad seem to feel threatened (why? do they feel insecure?).

Well, that is their problem. Devonians don't need permission from either to chose their own symbol and state their own identity.

Sermon over


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