h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ugh! Emotional blackmail from little . I found him pinching food yet again from my cupboard - half a block of flapjack this time. The he wouldn't eat his tea. Then he tried sneaking some fruit past me - no tea, no fruit is my rule.

Some if the time, if he just *asked* he would get what he wants. I've withdrawn treats for two weeks for pinching treat drinks - he was given one, he took one, which was meant for the next day.

Remonstrations, threats of punishment if he steals again - I will put a lock on the cupboard, and I sent him to bed (OK only a bit before his real bedtime). Howls, more howls. I should be working on the Charlton Athletic entry; there's only a little to do. I feel emotionally drained. I'm off to bed.

I usually go the way of least resistance. And then remember Bill Cosby! In one stand-up routine, he complains about his small daughter eating some cake before breakfast. Then he says to himself - hey, what's the problem? - there's grain, there's egg, there's milk, there's sugar - there's nutrition in that cake - why shouldn't she eat it?

If I remember rightly, your little boy has some problems with some food, so, as long as what he eats is within the range of what he is allowed to eat, what does it matter when he eats it?

And if you would prefer him to stick to mealtimes, you'll just have to be crafty. You've probably thought this all out yourself, but is it possible to PRO-act at the mealtime _before_ he's likely to start scavenging, rather than REact at the mealtime afterwards. i.e. make sure he has a good breakfast/lunch. Or, if there's time, introduce a tea/coffee break, so he can officially eat between meals. It's supposed to be better to eat 5 times a day and less rather than only 3 times, but bigger meals.

As I am a terrible nibbler-between-meals I can't really say anything when mine start eating Cornflakes at 3 pm or warm up last night's spaghetti at 10 in the morning. I certainly have thrown any set ideas as to 'what has to be eaten when' by the board. Until not many decades ago, a breakfast was just as much a meal with meat or veg as any other meal. In China and South East Asia, I am sure, some people have to eat rice for all meals. So who are we to stipulate what one eats when? It's only a question of fashion/culture.

A women's magazine would advise to only have suitable food available for him to scrounge, but I think that is just too goody-goody.

He's a growing lad remember, he could be starving. And why "after tea no fruit"? Conventional wisdom would be to encourage fruit-eating. Perhaps encourage him to ask for stuff rather than just helping himself ... at least until you can be confident that he's responsible in what he's eating.

DMT

So, ZSF - don't wear yourself out. There are bigger problems a child can cause and far bigger worries. Save your energy for those. Use it on yourself and achieving your own aims and satisfying your own interests. With a more fulfilled Mum and less stress, he might not feel the urge to eat in this erratic way. Perhaps he's just looking for a way of disobeying you, so think yourself lucky it's only in this way, and not anything more serious.

Sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees. (I find it hard to justify myself saying these things to you, of all people.)

PS - sorry in my haste I misread your posting. No tea no fruit. So anway, give the lad fruit for tea next time. I've read that it's possible to live on fruit and fruit alone. But I suppose that's a 360 thing.

Agreed with Trill ... it's hard to know where to draw the line sometimes. They want their way. You want yours. Is it so important to impose your way rather than compromise a little. Otherwise he'll only know black-and-white. But we live our lives in grey don't we? [I am going through this myself ... trying to be a better more understanding parent, and not such an ogre]

DMT

Firstly, my sympathies! They are trying, the little darlings, aren't they....

The "rule" in our house is you never need to ask permission to eat fruit or drink water. This is to try to encourage that healthy eating palaver. Anything else (sweets, biscuits, other drinks) have to have my official okey-dokey first.

Get them involved in preparing the meal - they're much more likely to appreciate somehting they've had a hand in creating. And when my 2 were younger, they used to really enjoy making "Happy faces" for tea - cut up a selction of apples, oranges, grapes, cherry tomatoes, bits of cheese, raisins, the odd bread stick..and make it into a clown face.

Good luck!

Jacaranda cried the first time we made his dinner into a face. He didn't want to eat it. We've never done it since.

DMT

And just to give you further encouragement, the daughter of a good friend of mine, throughout almost her entire childhood, would eat only "square meat", ( a kind of spam!!!,)dry toast, and undressed lettuce, very rarely fruit, except for juice. She has grown up to be a very sturdy lass, exceptionally intelligent, now completing a Ph.D. on some obscure aspect of genetics. If you make a fuss of food, children become fussy feeders ( speaking as a father of three ). The one thing we never did was to allow sweets to become a bribe, in fact, we didn't ever get into the sweet/pudding habit, except for special occasions, and didn't keep sweets, including biscuits in the house. But they ate loads of fruit, whenever they wanted.

Oh, he got the fuit for breakfast. I must admit I was cross with him. He was obviously *sneaking* the fuit under his jumber - he couldn't have telegraphed it more if he tried - complete with tip-toeing *burglar's* walk. He was taking a satsuma/mandarin type thing to his bedroom, where i would have found peelings all over his bed.

When I come back from work, I try to make his meals, which means he has to wait. usually, when I offer him fruit while he waits he turns his nose up at it.

I think the idea of never having to ask for water or fruit is a good thing! It may sometimes mean there's not enough for his after school club, and we've gone down that one before.

Might be a good point about the 'starving'. He often wants breakfast cereal, which I am happy to give him often if it means a peaceful life (shades of Bill Cosby). However, when he pinches it and I find it in the living room all over the floor and in my sofa, I am less than happy.

I'm going to re-read this thread. The more tips i can get, the better. I often feel I am a failing mother. The 'My child won't tidy his room/clean his teeth/ wash his hands/ and I have to threaten him before he'll do it' syndrome.

Actually, I heard once that it's the way we all bring up oud children as follows:

Ask once - child typcially doesn't react
Ask again - more insistently and in a louder voice
Third time - 'If you don't (do whatever it is) you won't be able to (have your favourite sweet/visit your friend/go to the party/ride your bike, etc).

Child does as s/he is told and the parent gets all steamed up and feels s/he must be a bad parent for having to threaten the child.

If there's a better model that works I'd like to know. I've tried asking, praise/appreciation. I gather that for each piece of praise a child gets, there are 13 negative messages! I tried to get him to learn 'yes' before 'no'. Which one did he learn first? Ha!

And yes, I am appreciative of the fact that he eats almost everything I put in front of him, with the exception of anything even vaguely spicy. He'll eat lettuce, loves spinach and will even eat celery. He's pestering me to eat meat now, though. I don't think I could cope with cooking two kinds of meal, though.

We never had rules. (1) I can't remember them and anyway (2) am not at home to enforce them, (3) There's always a reason for making exceptions, and, lastly, (4) I have trouble keeping to them myself.

The only thing you have a right to force into your child are moral values. And this you have done in the first three years. Everything else falls into place by the time they're about 16.

And being an example isn't even a way of training your children. If there are sweets in the house, I'm the only one who eats them.

So I basically feel I don't have to blame myself if anything goes wrong (which it hasn't - touch wood) because I left the bringing up to the people who know best - the kids themselves.

Don't think I'm smug about this - I realise I should have been here, instead of working full time, so I still find enough to blame myself about.

Most of what parents say to their children is a waste of breath. It is far more important to talk to your children about their interests and actually hold a conversation with them (ESPECIALLY at the ages from about 5 to 13 - after that conversations are more likely to take place anyway) than to keep giving them orders or imposing rules. Take them and their interests seriously, and they will learn the most important thing in life - self esteem, self respect, and self confidence.

A basic rule of rhetorics (like sales people or therapists would be trained to use) is to ASK rather than to TELL. And to ask questions that will cause the other person to open up - not just answer with a "yes" or "no". Rule of thumb: the question should start with "w". (When, what, how - preferably not "why")

So you could perhaps coax little into the kitchen, as Lucky Star suggests, when you both come home, and get him to help with the meal (or unpacking the shopping - whatever is his preference) and talk to him about something neutral like, say, something you are listening to on the radio (a song, a news item)

The questions with "w" should be carefully phrased, though. I have found that the best way to shut them up is to ask "How was school today?" You have to be more specific and ask "how did the maths test go?" and so on. Anything to keep his mind occupied.

Hmmm. Don't know if that's any use, but it was nice to get it off my chest.

Friends of mine adopted a completely non-confrontational way of bringing up their children. They never impose anything on their children but discuss it with them. This can lead to hilarious results: younger child runs through room chased by elder child wielding axe. Parent's reaction: "Can we talk about this"?

I never felt I had any choice other than to work full time. To have been at home would have meant being supported on benefits - no, thank you, my pride would never have allowed it!

TC, thanks for this. I've never felt adequate as a mother, but I don't think there's a way I could ever have lived up to the 'super-mum' image of being a highly polished professional (OK, I don't do too badly on this one), impeccably groomed (I tend to dress like a teacher), having a life of my own (OK, I've just begun to have a little space for me) and being the super supportive, attentive, meals on the table at regular times and 'quality' time for little , including playing, teaching and stuff like teaching him to cycle, swim, etc.

I took him out to teach him to cycle this evening. A colleague at work had taken off his training wheels from his bike, which meant loosening the nuts on the back wheel and replacing them once the trainer wheels came off. Little was really excited and I must admit I wasn't really looking forward to it. In the event, we went up to the common. He pushed the bike up the hill there, wearing his cycle helmet.

Every two seconds, the chain came off the bike. I think the back wheel had been set too close, so that the chain was loose. I put it back on again, and again, and again (OK, I lost count of how many times!). Little sulked. I explained it wasn't his fault. He wanted to get on again and again, long past all hope of the chain staying on. I got covered in oil. I was frustrated and upset.

Gnomon,

Hm, I also try to discuss things with him and to ask rather than tell. Some things, however, are not up for discussion, like when he stood in the middle of the road to see if any traffic was coming earlier on today. I raised my voice and ordered him back on the pavement and then asked him what would have happened if a car had come. He thought he would have been OK. I begged to differ! In matters of safety, my word counts!

It is perfectly obvious what a totally adequate mother you are, judging by your concern and the degree to which you are involved with little

I never saw my mother at all when I was a small child, except for summer holidays ( and then she was off painting ) and when I was considered "presentable." I didn't appear in the dining room, and then only for breakfast, until I was going to day school aged five. I didn't get to have Christmas dinner in the evening with my family until I was going to boarding school, aged nine. And so on.

And this isn't a "poor me" moan, it's just the way things were done then, yonks ago, in the professional/medical world, nannies and boarding schools all the way.

So I'm sure little is doing splendidly.

With our own kids we were the polar opposite, of course. Totally hands on, and fortunately I mainly worked from home so that made sharing the jobs easier. But even so, there were times of insane exhaustion...none of ours ever slept through the night before about the age of four, so that spread over three kids, meant ten years sleep deprivation which can really unhinge the brain.

You're right to be scared about roads though, children have to learn that roads are not a safe play area with so many reckless drivers around. We always insisted that when we were walking to the park, for instance, footballs, tennis balls etc had to be carried in a bag.

But the amazing thing is, that by and large, kids only get hurt when there are adults on hand. It's as if their psyche knows. I remember one awful time, when we still had only our baby daughter, just a toddler. She was sitting beside us on a bench in a shopping centre. Suddenly, with no warning at all, she decided to slip down off the seat, caught her chin on the way down, and bit half through her tongue. You never saw anything like the blood. But miraculously, it healed almost immediately. Very strange and very scarey.

Another time, when she was about six, I was pushing her on a swing in the park, and she suddenly decided to let go of the ropes, flew off, and landed on her head. Slightly cut. Yikes! She's now a stunning 26 and training as a circus trapeze artist!!

And then there was the time our youngest, still crawling, decided to crawl out through the top half of a narrow sash window, we thought he was sound asleep, and plummetted into the yard, landing, by the grace of God, on a pile of weeds I was supposed to have cleared up the day before, but hadn't. Despite a fall of about 12 feet, he was totally unhurt. He has just appeared, nude, at the opening of the new Saatchi Gallery in London ( along with a couple of hundred others!) A hulking great lump of a 20-year old, he's doing a three-year degree course in acupuncture at Westminster University.

The moral of my tedious tale is that kids survive the most incredible things. And little is obviously loved to bits, which is what matters. At the important level, he knows it too, bless him, and you.



wallah

Thank you Chai!

You appear to have been brought up on 'children should be seen and not heard' without a great deal of being seen either!

I can remember one schoolday morning walking up the hill to the common and little telling me 'You're not enough, mummy!' and how hurt I was, but how I realised that he was right - he needed male influence and he was surrounded by females, and wonderful as we may be, we can't give all the elements he needs to develop in the round.

I think that was one of the reasons I got so upset about the bicycle losing its chain, and not being properly set up. This is the thing that (in my mind) a father ought to do - note the word 'ought'. I feel I should be able to do it, but I'm not strong enough to untighten the nuts. It's not as though I'm an incompetant - I used to strip the carburretors on my motorbikes.

As for road danger, I used to think that it wasn't the roads, it was the drivers. Now I tend to think that the design on roads and the way the planners bow down to the needs of the motorist above those of child safety also has a part to play. I was listening to a Radio 4 broadcast on Monday evening, which traced the development of motorised traffic. The first motorists were well-to-do and thought that the police should be dealing with the plebs rather than telling them off about speeding. The AA were set up as an anti-police pro-speeding organisation originally. Because motorists were seen to be 'gentlemen', that's why we had a Highway Code, which the gentlemen would obey. Children were told to get out of the way. In many ways that attitude still persists. In Manchester in the 30s, they had something called 'Play Streets' where cars were allowed only if they had business in the street. So vehicles will be 'demoted' in the hierarchy and will have to give way to pedestrians and children will finally be able to play safely in the street. Hopefully!

Little has only really got hurt badly once and I was there. He went behind the couch and put his hands round the riser to the radiator and got the most incredible blisters. I didn't know what had happened af first and he was too young to tell me. It was only when I noticed his finger and thumb had gone red that I realised and then rushed upstairs to put his hand under cold running water. And, yes, he survived. The blister was incredible though - it came up to half the height of the width of his hand.

Both of my older 2 had accidents which seemed quite serious at the time, and, funnily enough, they were absolutely identical. At the age of 18 months, they climbed the slide on the playground with me standing beside or behind the steps. The top of the slide was just above my head. They then started to sit down ready to slide down and I went round (in both cases) to the front of the slide, to be beside them as they slid down adn be at the bottom when they landed. In both cases, just at that moment, they fell backwards down the steps. Heaven knows how.

Still they are both doing fine now, one studying electrical engineering and the other has just finished school reasonably well.

Odd, isn't it how these things happen and there seems to be a pattern to them? Over the past few days, I cut my right arm (only a tiny cut) on liitle 's bike chain. Yesterday, I cut my right forefinger on a chopper and today, I pierced my right thumb pad on a rusty nail. All right sided stuff!

I'm told that there's often a reason for this. Right sided stuff is meant to be about ones'a masculine side. In my case, it could be that I'm not handling something correctly.

Oh my dear Zarquhon

I have missed you and have been searching for you everywhere.

I am so sorry that you are having problems. I would hesitate to tell you how I dealt with my five children. Five under the age of seven!!. Very fiercely and I would probably be reported to some society for the prevention of Cruelty to children!!
Fortunately they have all turned out well and do not seemn to bear me too much angst.

Because they were so close together and used to fight every day about who should sit in the front of the car; who should do this and who should do that I allocated each one of them a day in the week. On Monday it was M. turn to sit in the front of the car, And when we came home he and I would have lunch together whilst the four others had lunch in the nursery. And so on down the line. Only years later did they tell me that they HATED the day that they had to spend with me!!(They did say they were teasing but I wonder!!)

My youngest son loathed meat. And it was only later that I found all his meat hidden behind in a corner of the nursery!!. Perhaps young likes it? Tastes differ and it is difficult to expect young people who need a lot of protein when growing up to understand one's preferences.

I think that it is important that the children should have access both to fruit and veggies as much as you can afford. Also that they should enjoy their food. I think that the task you have is incredibly difficult but I think that you are causing yourself a lot of sadness by turning things into serious offences. Like "nicking" fruit from a fruit bowl. That is actually a jolly good thing. He could actually be "nicking" cash or cigarettes!! (if you smoke which I am sure that you don't)

Be gentle on yourself my love. You are a wonderful person and I am sure that little really loves you. The problem is that you are the only one around whom he can "wind up" And as you obviously react (as I do) he enjoys doing it!!.

There are a lot of good suggestions in all the mail that you have received. I really think that you must be less hard on yourself and little The fact that you cannot mend a bicycle chain is not your fault. In fact you could actually get cross with the person who took the side wheels off!! That might prove to be quite a bonding thing with your little pride and joy!!

Fondest and a huge fat
Why not take him to the meet?
AR1
Please forgive the lecture part. It is given with a great deal of love, affection and respect for your wonderfuol qualities and the way in which you ahve supported me during these last six months.

Hi AR1!

Oh, I was just peeved at him. Last night, he ate all our apples and I happily let him - he's discovered how much he likes Pink Lady apples. I suspect if I had them all the time, he'd get bored. Earlier on, he ate all the mandarins. The problem with those is not the stealing, it's the skin and pith all over his bedroom on the floor and in his bedclothes. I'd much sooner he asked me about them.

Mine wants to be a meat eater. We're veggies. I've told him, he can make his preferences later and I'm not going to cook two sets of meals. My freezer packed up some months ago, so I'm now cooking most things fresh.

He's also got into melodramatically threatening to kill himself - 'Just give me a knife'. All attention-seeking stuff and usually when he's taking stuff on himself - sometimes only small things, but he blows them out of all proportion. Today, he went to play at a friend's house and their neighbour's child soaked them by spraying a hosepipe over the hedge. He blames himself - goodness knows why. On these occasions, he says he's stupid. He's actually amazingly intelligent. Does make it difficult to handle at times. I usually try to get behind what's happened, acknowledge the feeling, reassure and hug him. Oh, just out of the bath, and still upset.

My love,
thank yOu for replying. I just wanted to say that you are not alone. I would have given anything to be able to put my arms around you and tell you not to worry. thyat you are special.

The problem, I would think is that probably most of his friends are not vegetarians. Could you possibly introduce him to some of your friends who have children who are vegetarians and then he can discuss this problem with his peer group.

I also think/suggest that you do not use the word "steal". If it is his home and yours then I truly believe that the food available should be available without him having to ask for it.I feel sure that in this wzy you will soon find that he will et into the habit of asking for it. Children are very contrary creatures - they always do the opposite of what one wishes them to do!!. I also love Pink Lady apples - and mandarins which we used to call naartjies in South Africa.

I do not think that you shouold think that all his threats are atention seeking. He has problems and probably feels that no-one understands them. I think some time ago we discussed the fact that he could be jealous of you-know-who. Could this be at the base of his behaviour.

My dear one. Having children is very difficult. It is also very rewarding. You have great courage and great kindness. I am sure that with love and compassion you will both come through this difficult period. Is there someone who has the same beliefs as you who could either guide you or indicate to you to whom you could go for advice?
Hasve courage and you will come through this.
With much and I boipe that you have a good night's rest. You are special and an esceptional person.

AR1

Very dear Zarquhon

I have been thinking of you both all day and praying that little will try to do as he is told, and you will not suffer such angst.

Have faith dear Zarquhon.

You can overcome this problem

Much

AR1