h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

hi rg

'Clear as mud. We don't know who the flag wavers were'

Somewhat my point so your introduction of flag waving bloke in a discussion about civic nationalism is a non-sequitur.

'He did though to no avail as Joe Public can do sums.'

Which sums?'

'Interestingly Sturgeon repeated the offer on Corbyn's victory. I don't have his reaction to hand.'

Corbyn said that he would work with the SNP at Westminster on a 'case by case basis' but also said that he would expect a future Labour administration in Edinburgh, if such there will be, to co-ordinate their devolved tax raising powers with those a future Labour administration in Westminster, if such there be. So firmly re-asserting the 'branch office' of the former.

'It wasn't allowed to play out so we don't know if the UK would have been edged towards the door.'

The Lisbon Treaty was the first EU treaty to have a formal mechanism to allow states to exit. Signing up to it made it easier for the UK to exit. (TEU Article 50)

'It could however the inertia sits with remaining'

Unless overcome by a sufficiently strong force.

'You mean UK in the sense that a No vote would leave Scotland as part?'

No, the opposite.


"Salmond warns 'Brexit vote' biggest threat to Scotland's EU membership" May 20, 2014 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/20/uk-scotland-independence-eu-idUKKBN0E00GT20140520 (the referendum not taking place till September 18, 2014)'

A Cameron promise is not a manifesto commitment. The Conservative 2015 Election manifesto post-dated the Scottish independence referendum.

'Broon the Doom? Not a fan I admit to that.'

Whereas I am not a fan of the Nulabour nomenklatura in its entirety. Somewhat oddly Alistair Darling, Nulabour front man of Project Fear, has warned the Scottish Labour Party against veering towards the left after the election of Jeremy Corbyn as UK party leader claiming 'The Nationalists are quintessentially New Labour in their approach. They are parked in the centre ground.'

'My personal view is that as the Tories have already been accused of reneging they might as well offer nothing.'

Clearly they disagree hoping not doubt that 'half a loaf' strategy will keep the Scot quiescent while Cameron negotiates 'a famous victory' with the EU.

'Makes little difference there was always going to be another? Some excuse would be found (perhaps not even yet thought of today). Like Sturgeon said the other day; a referendum would be held when it looked as if victory could be secured.'

A victory would only be secured if the Scottish voters choose to vote 'Yes' tis is more likely if the promise of 'home rule' is not delivered or if a Brexit occurs (perhaps more likely given Corbyn's attitude to the EU).

'I listened on my 1950s radiogram. It seemed appropriate.'

The Labour government fell in 1951 due to splits over a Gaitskellite austerity budget and were ot of power for thirteen years. This time the boot seems to be on the other foot.

'That said an independent Labour party would have to be truly independent in the sense that in the HoC it could without sanction organise itself to vote against the England and Wales party.

So not unlike the relationship between the Northern Irish SDLP and the Labour Party.

'PS in case you missed it I liked Barndoor's Elk reference the other day.'

I assumed it was a typo for 'ilk' if not the reference passed me by.

bs

Hi Bx4

"...so your introduction of flag waving bloke in a discussion about civic nationalism is a non-sequitur..."

Yet flags clearly played a part in Indy1 "The campaigns to date have been a tedious parade of union flags versus saltires, of pop identity about caring Scots versus heartless Tories." http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/17/scottish-independence-after-the-flag-waving yet the article is not unsympathetic to the notion of civic nationalism concluding "The case for a yes vote rests not on nation, independence or being Scottish. A smaller unit of government, given the chance to start over, might have a shot at reinventing the sustainable state – which would be of value to all." That said every state has a flag. Folk coalesce around flags even where the government declares itself 'civil'.

"...Which sums?.."

Just the one actually which said that there was to be a hung parliament (according to the opinion polls we so cherrish) Labour would need the SNP to secure a majority. This worked regardless of what Miliband said. The Tory poster campaign helped and if there was still doubt the SNP leader helpfully acted it out on live prime time BBC1

"...firmly re-asserting the 'branch office' of the former..."

Thank you for detailing Corbyn's response. On 'branch office' I have to say an independent Labour Party for Scotland would appear to be the way forward. This isn't so left field (excuse the pun) an idea as the current setup has as many MPs as The Tories!

"...The Lisbon Treaty was the first EU treaty ... to it made it easier for the UK to exit..."

Agreed. That said there were other things in it and it bore a striking similarity (after a lot of cutting and pasting) to The Constitutional Treaty which everyone and their dog offered a referendum on.

"...No, the opposite..."

I'm afraid you've lost me here given that you then pasted my link to Salmond warning about the consequences of a No vote followed by a UK referendum on EU membership?

"...[quoting]'The Nationalists are quintessentially New Labour in their approach. They are parked in the centre ground.'

OK I'll take Darling's word for it. No way am I close enough to know otherwise.

"...hoping not doubt that 'half a loaf' strategy will keep the Scot quiescent..."

"every plan to devolve further power from Westminster to Holyrood seems only to encourage greater support for the SNP and its calls for even more devolution" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34263130 I'd extend this - devolution is a stepping stone to independence.

"...more likely if the promise of 'home rule' is not delivered or if a Brexit occurs (perhaps more likely given Corbyn's attitude to the EU)..."

Corbyn seems to have reversed on membership of the EU. I'd agree of what you suggest might trigger anger enough to vote 'Yes' in Indy2 though it will surely come regardless?

Gave BB a run this week in 'four seasons one day' weather. It went well. Luckily the wet bit was at the start and 'things only got better'.

bs