h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Bx4

Drat: "2010: Brown looses GE"!

Loose typing and poor proof reading. Must try harder.

Whilst here "The Sunday Herald becomes the first newspaper to publicly back a "Yes" vote in the Scottish independence referendum." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27274460 the piece in the paper itself was well presented in my view.

bs

hi rg

V. busy at moment will reply at weekend

bs

Hi rg

>>Salmond writes "We will work in partnership with the rest of the UK to share the pound" there is no ambiguity. <<

I did not say there was ambiguity that in a negotiation between two parties your use of 'decided' implies both parties have come to an agreement. In any case:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound

http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/should-an-independent-scotland-keep-the-pound

So that putative rUK would appear (Pace The Boy George) not to have decided to prevent Scotland from Sharing the pound nor from the second link is it clear that the rUK can unilaterally decide to prevent Scotland from retaining sterling.

>>This hasn't existed for a long time. Scotland (dependant on poll result) is leaving the UKofGB&NI which continues whatever Scotland decides. As said before if we were all voting on dissolution of the said UKofGB&NI then in that case this could result. <<
I don't think your argument works because although a United Kingdom has persisted since 1707 its composition has changed with the addition of Ireland in 1808 giving the UK of GB & I a the secession of Eire in 1922. giving the UK of GB & NI. Changes in the composition of the UK has always been accompanied by changes in the name which reflected the change in composition. Just as Ireland disappeared from the name when Ireland seceded similarly the part of the name that represents the union of Scotland and England, that is, Great Britain, will similarly cease to exist if Scotland secedes.

>>We don't. We won't all have the opportunity to vote on the dissolution of the UK; the only vote taking place on September 18 is in Scotland. From memory the ballot paper will say "Scotland should be an independent country" no effect to dissolution is stated nor implied.<<

So your point about all parts of the UK having a say was contingent upon a purely hypothetical situation?

>>The Real Opposition aren't just those in power today. The Real Opposition claims to be a democracy no? I recall that at the time of the coalition I thought it an unnatural marriage and wouldn't last. Even the leader of the Evil party says he wouldn't go to bed with them again.<<

I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it was Clegg, an Orange book Liberal Democrat who coined the phrase. I wonder if, post 2015, the only way the Tories could stay in power was through a new coalition with the Liberal Democrats then I'm sure Dave will prove 'flexible'.

>>1997, 2001 & 2005: Labour win GE under Blair who becomes PM.
2007: Brown stabs Blair in the back and becomes PM after a poll of Labour MPs (Miliband et al not on the ballot)
2010: Brown looses GE

The way Brown become PM was though his Labour Cabinet colleges standing aside. In the normal populist route to becoming PM Brown was a failure. <<

Your comment was that Brown 'couldn't get elected'. I merely pointed out that he had been thanks to the electorate of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

>>I've still not read of 'pegging' as an SNP plan nor their reasoning. <<

I didn't suggest the a peg to the pound was 'an SNP plan' merely that it is a viable alternative should a currency union not transpire.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/02/14/how-scotland-can-keep-the-pound/

>>I understand this; though still think it would make more sense to peg to the Euro if that's where Scotland believes it is going. <<

In the longer term it may be but in the short term a peg to the pound would be easier.

>>In my view it is key. Sticking a 'post-it' note on a policy labeling it 'Green' is of no value unless it is Green. If it doesn't pass muster with the Greens then is it even Green? <<

Since the levy was described, by the Non-Greens who introduced it, a primarily a revenue raising measure the it would appear to be the greens who are in the 'Post It' note business

>>(The Ukraine) I'm not clear what you want the UK to do?<<

Admit they are a fourth rate power with little influence on the world stage and stop indulging in empty rhetoric.

>>Farage<<

Not really au fait with situation but did he ever say he would stand? Or is it all a 'meeja' factoid?

>>It won't be long before the European parliamentary election and we'll see if UKIP peaked in 2009. <<
Indeed.

bs

Hi Bx4

Your 'may keep the pound' link ends with "a currency union simply will not happen". Of course anything might happen - especially so when all the public decision making has been confined to one side of the 'union'.

"... nor from the second link is it clear that the rUK can unilaterally decide to prevent Scotland from retaining sterling..."

Without wishing to sound like a broken record I fail to see why the SNP Government is so keen to continue to use the currency of the very state it is so keen to break away from *especially* so when the Euro is the final destination. At best Scotland could hope for [from link] "one vote out of nine" in the Bank of England. Why should the UK electorate tolerate any meddling by a foreign government in the management of their currency?

Why would a Scottish electorate, pumped up with the adrenalin of independence, want to immediately give some of it up to the very same hated Tories (and their bank) that they'd have just voted to be free of? Back in the UK we've previously been 'promised' a vote before joining the Euro (ironically by a failed Scottish PM); the same courtesy should be extended before embarking on a currency union.

"...Changes in the composition of the UK has always been accompanied by changes in the name which reflected the change in composition..."

There's always a first time. Especially so when Scotland is nowhere in the name.

"...Great Britain, will similarly cease to exist if Scotland secedes..."

Great Britain is the name of the island where the UK state is located.

"...all parts of the UK having a say was contingent upon a purely hypothetical situation?.."

I'd have thought the whole of the UK would have to have a say on the dissolution of the UK. I fail to see why a vote confined to such a small portion of the electorate could be legitimate if dissolution is the objective. The minor proportion could of course vote to leave.

"...I wonder if, post 2015, the only way the Tories could stay in power was through a new coalition with the Liberal Democrats then I'm sure Dave will prove 'flexible'..."

I hope not! Please never again.

"...I merely pointed out that he had been thanks to the electorate of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath..."

Indeed and the good people of Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath have quite a catch there.

"...[Pegging the Pound] it is a viable alternative should a currency union not transpire..."

Yes.

"...in the short term a peg to the pound would be easier..."

If that's what Scotland wants to do then I agree there's nothing we can do to stop a peg. Does the Scottish electorate understand the difference between this and what Salmond writes of in his manifesto?

"...Since the levy was described, by the Non-Greens who introduced it, a primarily a revenue raising measure the it would appear to be the greens who are in the 'Post It' note business..."

Indeed. I still don't see them wanting to see a reduction in the taxes on flying.

"...Admit they are a fourth rate power with little influence on the world stage and stop indulging in empty rhetoric..."

Fair enough. That's cheap and no blood spilled.

"...but did he ever say he would stand?.."

IIRC he said he'd think about it.

bs

hi rg
Rather busy at the moment squiring visiting (Chinese) 'fireman' round H. Things I do for Das Reich! Gone by weekend so I'll reply then.

Saw story that Darling is being sideline from 'Project fear to be replaced by Broon the Doom and one of the Alexander twins (No relation of to the Wingman Chief Secretary to the Treasury) but brother to the Notorious Bendy Wendy of 'Bring it on' fame

bs

bs

Hi Bx4

Hope you are well?

"...Darling is being sideline from 'Project fear to be replaced..."

This was news to me. I'll have to look this up later.

bs

Hi rg

hootoo is refusing to post my reply s it 'contains a word which some may find offensive' <doh. though I can see none such. Clearly I will have to deconstruct into smaller chunks and repost.

bs

Hi Bx4

Look forward to the (broken up?) post.

Interesting - just watching the BBC Sulfur take on the EU election.

They have just said that UKIP are predicted to have a MEP in Scotland!

bs

>>well?<<

Yes. Just v. busy with work in the form of a representative of out Chinese partners impacting on limited Freizeit. However managed a wee run along the Elbe on B2 yesterday.

>>Your 'may keep the pound' link ends with "a currency union simply will not happen". Of course anything might happen - especially so when all the public decision making has been confined to one side of the 'union'. <<

This is merely a a quotation by Alastair Carmichael, Secretary of State for Scotland, a running dog of Project Fear, whose predecessor, Michael Moore, got the chop for saying a currency Union was possible.

Also the article points out that the 'rejection' of a currency union was at the behest of the leaderette of Project Fear:

'Westminster's emphatic rejection was taken on the specific advice of the former chancellor and Better Together chief, Alistair Darling, and the main Downing Street Scottish adviser, Andrew Dunlop. The Treasury had assumed that Osborne would stick to his position of saying that a currency union would be highly unlikely.'

Though, from my original link, it seems to have led to the opposite response from that intended. Perhaps Project Fear and its Unionist and media running dogs has overplayed its hand.

A degree of irony may be found in a earlier comment by AD that:

'it would be "desirable" and "logical" for an independent Scotland to keep the pound...that a currency union between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be the best available option for both parties.'


>>Without wishing to sound like a broken record I fail to see why the SNP Government is so keen to continue to use the currency of the very state it is so keen to break away from *especially* so when the Euro is the final destination. At best Scotland could hope for [from link] "one vote out of nine" in the Bank of England.<<
Less bother as a transitional arrangement than the other options, perhaps.

>>Why should the UK electorate tolerate any meddling by a foreign government in the management of their currency? <<

Because Scotland will have a claim on part of the assets of the Bank of England, perhaps.

>>Why would a Scottish electorate, pumped up with the adrenalin of independence, want to immediately give some of it up to the very same hated Tories (and their bank) that they'd have just voted to be free of?><<

I thought it was your view that the hegemony of the Tories over the rUK will cease after May 7 2015.

>>Back in the UK we've previously been 'promised' a vote before joining the Euro (ironically by a failed Scottish PM); the same courtesy should be extended before embarking on a currency union.<<

Of course the 'failed Scottish PM' was in fact a failed UK PM; Scotland not having a PM but an FM. Moreover, I do not recall the UK electorate being consulted on the Maastricht Treaty or its subsequent revisions in the Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon Treaties.

Hi rg

Weird. Hootoo seems to find a link to the Scottish online media site news_net_scotland (without the _s) potentially offensive. Unclear why though I seem to recall a similar problem before

newsnet

hi rg

The rest:

>>There's always a first time. Especially so when Scotland is nowhere in the name.<<

However:

'...the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland shall upon the first Day of May which shall be in the Year one thousand seven hundred and seven...be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain'
(An Act for an Union of the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland. 1706).

>>Great Britain is the name of the island where the UK state is located<<

However with the secession of Scotland the rUK will only occupy //part// of Great Britain nd will have no claim of sovereignty over the rest of it.

>>I'd have thought the whole of the UK would have to have a say on the dissolution of the UK. I fail to see why a vote confined to such a small portion of the electorate could be legitimate if dissolution is the objective. The minor proportion could of course vote to leave.<<

But a vote for a part of the UK to secede is clearly not a vote that would dissolve the remainde of the UK (the rUK).

>>I hope not! Please never again<<

'Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow'
('The Hollow Men', T S Eliot)

>>Indeed and the good people of Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath have quite a catch there.<<

Tribal labour loyalists - a dying breed even in Scotland.

I believe the manifesto merely said 'We will give Scots the opportunity to decied our nation's future in a independence referendum'. The issue of currency union was addressed in the 2013 'white paper "Scotland's Future"

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/9348/0

>>Indeed. I still don't see them wanting to see a reduction in the taxes on flying<<
Still doesn't mean their views are of any relevance to the actual revenue raisng puspose of the tax.

>>Fair enough. That's cheap and no blood spilled. <<

Sadly Britain still 'struts its stuff' in the international arena with consequences tha are neiher cheap nor gore free.

>>IIRC he said he'd think about it<<
The consequence of the thought when it came was to bottle it.

>>Darling<<

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2626699/Darling-sidelined-save-UK-lobby-Brown-bigger-role-against-SNP.html

or perhaps not

http://theporridge.co.uk/post/86383230023/darling-still-head-of-better-together-campaign-insists
bs

Hi Bx4

"...the 'rejection' of a currency union was at the behest of the leaderette of Project Fear..."

Whether or not there will be a currency union I don't know. I would imagine that the topic might crop up during the lead up to the 2015 Westminster election? I wonder what the protagonists will say then? Will there be clear blue water? Who knows?

Whether Salmond writing in Scotland's Future should claim "We will work in partnership with the rest of the UK to share the pound" or "We will [seek to] work in partnership with the rest of the UK to share the pound" is open to question. If Scotland votes for independence then independent it should be; and we of Scotland. I'm sure Scotland can find a willing partner to share a currency with.

Personally I'd like to see a referendum on any plan to share our currency with any foreign country; much as we were promised should Brown's Euro convergence criteria have been met.

"...I do not recall the UK electorate being consulted on the Maastricht Treaty or its subsequent revisions in the Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon Treaties..."

I wonder if this led to the first time in a hundred years that an UK election hasn't been won by one of the usual suspects? A cosy cartel signing up to Treaty after Treaty all the while paying lip service to giving the electorate the opportunity to say no.

bs

Hi Bx4

How is the Chinese visit coming along?

And I'm glad B2 got a run. BB was in prep yesterday. A family meet is in progress; the road shall be returned to later today. I need the practice as knees feel lazy.

"...the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland shall upon the first Day of May which shall be in the Year one thousand seven hundred and seven...be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain..."

How does this prevent the UK from continuing to use the UK name after Scotland leaves?

"...will only occupy //part// of Great Britain nd will have no claim of sovereignty over the rest of it..."

The USofA only occupies part of A and has no claim of sovereignty over the rest.

"...not a vote that would dissolve the remainde of the UK..."

IMV not a vote to dissolve the UK.

"...'Between the idea
And the reality'..."

I'd suggest that The Evil Tories are sinking. They won't make the numbers. Check out London in May. Labour is back. Where London leads the rest of the UK follows.

"...doesn't mean Greens views are of any relevance to the actual revenue raising puspose of the tax.

IMV Whatever the stated objective of a tax The Greens [who btw beat The Real Opposition in the EU poll] are the 'litmus paper' as to test whether or not it can be considered Green. They are the judge and jury. Kings may formulate and apply taxation. They can't make a Green see it as Green.

"...The consequence of the thought when it came was to bottle it..."

Fair enough.

"...>>Darling<< ..."

It's been quiet I'll grant you that.

bs

hi rg

>>Chinese visit<<

Over fortunately but at least no visits to the Reeperbahn (which I find very tedious) were required.

>>And I'm glad B2 got a run. BB was in prep yesterday. A family meet is in progress; the road shall be returned to later today. I need the practice as knees feel lazy.<<

hope you had an enjoyable run. Went to Travemunde yesterday to see about getting Das Boot of the stocks.

>>How does this prevent the UK from continuing to use the UK name after Scotland leaves?<<

It doesn't tho historically a change of sovereignty has been reflected by a change in name.

>>The USofA only occupies part of A and has no claim of sovereignty over the rest.<<

The United counties of Britain?

>>IMV not a vote to dissolve the UK<<

The part of the United kingdom called Great Britain (England and Scotland) will be dissolved. The rUK will not.

>>I'd suggest that The Evil Tories are sinking. They won't make the numbers. Check out London in May. Labour is back. Where London leads the rest of the UK follows.<<

Scotland did not follow when the Tories were elected in 2010.

>>IMV Whatever the stated objective of a tax The Greens [who btw beat The Real Opposition in the EU poll] are the 'litmus paper' as to test whether or not it can be considered Green. They are the judge and jury. Kings may formulate and apply taxation. They can't make a Green see it as Green.<<

The Greens who have never been in government may choose to label anything 'Green' if they wish but if the government who introduced it do not see it as Green then it isn't.

>>Fair enough<<

Interestingly in Scotland the party in power (as in Germany) was largely unaffected by the protest vote. It was the real oppsition who were ousted by UKIP.

>>It's been quiet I'll grant you that<<

Indeed, Project Fear seems somewhat in decline and involved in internal contradictions.

I see you are again active in the Bull 2.1.

bs

Hi Bx4

The Reeperbahn - Never been there (I'd only heard of it). On reflection this is for the best I feel.

BB had a good run though I could have managed a short off road section better - too fast and not enough planning. I bet you did't rush getting DB out of stocks risking over balancing and such like.

I'm not sure that part of a state can be dissolved? Once England and Scotland merged to form one state I don't believe there was a mechanism in the enabling treaty to facilitate the unravelling of a union which, to complicate matters further, itself became incorporated in another union?

The Evil Tories weren't elected in 2010. The king maker in chief agreed to share power with them.

"...if the government who introduced it do not see it as Green then it isn't..."

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one unless The Greens are in favour of lowering air passenger duty? If so then I'm right with you - it wasn't a Green tax at all where imo (yes I understand you take a different view) Green is a 'seal of approval' bestowed by The Greens.

"...It was the real opposition who were ousted by UKIP..."

It would appear so from raw percentages, though did Real Opposition voters really switch to UKIP en-masse? I'm guessing not.

"...Project Fear seems somewhat in decline..."

All wrapped up I gather as victory was declared on May 10 by Mustardland's top SNP supporter. All that's left is for the UK Government to wake up, smell the coffee and negotiate the best deal possible for the UK. The sooner Whitehall realises who their clients are (and who they are not) the better.

"...Bull 2.1..."

I gather this may fall over quite soon. The site is about to switch servers (tomorrow). Time will tell...

bs

Hi rg
Apologies. Hors de combat (for 3rd time) with chest/URT infection. Too feverish for coherent response.
bs

Hi Bx4

I'm sorry to read that you are under the weather and wish you a speedy recovery!

Here a battle with BT to maintain internet (availability seems to be quite random). Also install latest LTS version of Ubuntu after melt down of previous incarnation. Now in testing phase...

When all's said - get well!

bs

hi rg

Recently diagnose with Type II Diabetes and until blood sugar under control recurrent infections are a side effect (something t do with little beasties snacking on elevated blood sugar -or so I' m told) anyhow onwards and upwards.


>>The Reeperbahn - Never been there (I'd only heard of it). On reflection this is for the best I feel. <<

Indeed more a place for visiting tourists and country cousins up from the sticks. When obliged to go there I now have the transit down to a fine art. I do pass through regularly as it is on the route to the nearest Aldi Nord.

>>BB had a good run though I could have managed a short off road section better - too fast and not enough planning. I bet you did't rush getting DB out of stocks risking over balancing and such like.<<

DB safely placed in the water by professionals. Nice run on B2 before laid low.

>>I'm not sure that part of a state can be dissolved? Once England and Scotland merged to form one state I don't believe there was a mechanism in the enabling treaty to facilitate the unraveling of a union which, to complicate matters further, itself became incorporated in another union?<<

Surely this is precisely what occurred when Eire seceded. The rest of the UK remained but as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which replaced the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. So part of the state known as Ireland was dissolved by the secession. The EU unlike the UK is not a sovereign union so I don't see why that creates a problem.

>>The Evil Tories weren't elected in 2010. The king maker in chief agreed to share power with them.<<

Surely the coalition was elected which included the ETs?

>>I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one unless The Greens are in favour of lowering air passenger duty? If so then I'm right with you - it wasn't a Green tax at all where imo (yes I understand you take a different view) Green is a 'seal of approval' bestowed by The Greens.<<

Indeed but my point was that air passenger duty was brought in by an administration that had no Greens as members and said administration was quite clear that the duty was intended to raise revenues. The labeling of the duty as a 'green' tax by the Greens is wholly irrelevant to its actual purpose.

I'm sure this will not meet with their approval:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10668444/BA-chief-English-holidaymakers-will-flock-to-independent-Scotland-to-avoid-flight-tax.html

>>It would appear so from raw percentages, though did Real Opposition voters really switch to UKIP en-masse? I'm guessing not.<<

Well in Scotland, to which I was referring, there as one UKIP gain and one LD loss with all the other parties having the same number of MEPs as before. Given that the EU elections use proportional representation then clearly there was a swing from the LDs to UKIP.

>>All wrapped up I gather as victory was declared on May 10 by Mustardland's top SNP supporter. All that's left is for the UK Government to wake up, smell the coffee and negotiate the best deal possible for the UK. The sooner Whitehall realises who their clients are (and who they are not) the better.<<

Must confess I have not looked at TB of late but Im still not persuaded their will be a 'Yes' vote though I think it narrows day by day.

This may explain why Obama has been induced to enter the fray and the 'Axis of Evil' (Lamont, Rennie and Davidson) have joined forces to promise greater devolution in the event of a 'No' vote. Strangely, polls show the Scottish voter to be unimpressed by both the entente and the promise.

>>I gather this may fall over quite soon. The site is about to switch servers (tomorrow). Time will tell.<<

I find myself unmoved whatever the outcome. I gather GUru Bob has shuffled of this mortal coil.

>>Here a battle with BT to maintain internet (availability seems to be quite random). Also install latest LTS version of Ubuntu after melt down of previous incarnation. Now in testing phase...<<

You are not alone. I still subscribe to the online version of 'Which' and the latest edition features tales of disgruntlement with BT. I hope the Ubuntu upgrade goes well. I have had brief encounter with Windows8 and I am somewhat underwhelmed.

bs

Hi Bx4

I am very sorry to read of Type II Diabetes. My Stepfather lived with this disease for years. I won't write much more on this other to mention that the there are plenty of resources a click away. I found it striking to learn how many in the UK weren’t aware of their illness.

"...the transit down to a fine art..."

There is a particular industrial estate in Birmingham that's best transited with an extended stride and eyes averted from the 'ladies' who might be waiting for lifts.

"...Nice run on B2 before laid low..."

I'm pleased to read this (obviously not the 'laid low' part). I've not had the opportunity to swan around on BB this past week.

"...The rest of the UK remained but as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which replaced the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland..."

The state known as the UK remained. That the name was changed some seven years after the event was an unnecessary luxury in my view. These are different times – I'd expect the UK electorate to decide on any change of name of their state.

"...part of the state known as Ireland was dissolved by the secession..."

The territory known as Ireland seceded from the UK.

"...Surely the coalition was elected..."

I realise my memory isn't what it was; though I don't remember any 'coalition' appearing on the ballot?

"...The labeling of the duty as a 'green' tax by the Greens is wholly irrelevant to its actual purpose..."

As said before I'd be fore-square with you if the Greens were in favour of cutting APD.

"...English-holidaymakers-will-flock-to-independent-Scotland-to-avoid-flight-tax..."

And why not?

"...clearly there was a swing from the LDs to UKIP..."

Yes – That said did Real Opposition voters switch to UKIP or was there a transfer to UKIP from Evil Tory/Labour or some other combination? Could (horror of horrors) voters previously aligned to the SNP have given their vote to the Extra-Evil-Tories?

"... Im still not persuaded their will be a 'Yes' vote though I think it narrows day by day..."

As you know by now I'm cynical as to the value of opinion polls. That said, if memory serves, the 'Yes' camp were ahead when the Mustardland thread was started last Autumn? A case of 'back to the future' for 'Yes'?

"….Obama has been induced to enter the fray..."

He should know better than to interfere either way.

"…I gather GUru Bob has shuffled of this mortal coil..."

I'll be honest and declare that I don't know (or do I mean remember) who this was?

"...tales of disgruntlement with BT. I hope the Ubuntu upgrade goes well..."

The former are poor. I've been off line for a week and even experimented with 2G as an alternative!

Ubuntu – I think the full re-install was a good idea. Computer OSs like ship hulls need to be kept clear of barnacles?

bs