h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Paragraph 1: crystal clear
Paragraph 2: clear as glass (people can be sooo unreasonable...)
Paragraph 3: so mechanical engineers spend a lot of time ing "what if" situations?
Where does the programming come in?

Paragraph 4: You can keep thinking, but you answered the question elsewhere.

Paragraph 5: Um, does that happen often? (Acting out of field of expertise or bungling something badly)

Paragraph 6: Somewhat longer meaning how long? And government workers, I assume, work shorter hours. They tend to do that out of engineering; I assume it's a sort of law.

Paragraph 7: OK
Paragraph 8: Don't sweat it. It's OK to like your job.

Which reminds me:
You deserve it.

Where does programming come in? You might as well ask where does language come in during conversations.

The less flippant answer would be that it is an integral part of almost everything involved. Now then, running programs is also a big part, and one can spend most of one's career running already-written, in-house, or off-the-shelf programs, but how interesting is that? I have found over the years that a typical project will involve some commercial program, some kind of in-house program and lots of excel and mathcad as well as the self-authored programs. these used to be in fortran (can you believe that?), but I think Visual Basic and C++ are the coins of the realm now. It all comes down to generating data, converting data, analyzing data, and presenting data - so lots of things are involved.

Paragraph 5: acting out of the field of expertise - yes, it actually happens a lot. usually with minor consequences, but not always. I don't recommend it. Bungling something badly - let me say something about that. There's two basic types of errors. The first is the honest mistake - things just get overlooked sometimes - it is hoped that they are caught before anything goes out the door, but nobody's perfect. The second is the stupid mistake - due, let's say, to a defective understanding of the problem, or worse, of engineering principles. These are avoidable - avoid them. You are generally working with a team, there's generally someone to ask that won't laugh too hard at your simplicity and you'll be the wiser at the cost of only minor discomfort. On the other hand, imagine being forced to admit by a hostile attorney in court that you were ignorant but went ahead anyway. (shudder)

Somewhat longer meaning - actually, I'm the wrong person to ask as I tend to spend long hours at everything. But when deadlines are imminent, there may be weekends involved. When a phase is just completed, you could probably leave early unnoticed. Government workers can simply quit at 5 no matter what is going on. Plus they seem to get a lot of vacation. In fact I would rate the quality of a government job by the amount of time you don't have to spend at it.

mmm...

Is programming part of the engineering curriculum? I have an excellent C++ book, but instructors can be useful. (So I'm discovering, as I attempt to teach myself basic physics out of library books.)



Oh, random question: are the parentheses some sort of security blanket, mystical sign, secret code (like a mason handshake?), or just convenient portable storage?

Programming is part of the curriculum. Teaching yourself basic physics you are made of very stern stuff, I think.

The parentheses just sort of happened. I should probably let them go sometime.

When I do something, I like to do it well. Plus, if I score well on the Physics and Math SAT IIs, maybe Cooper Union will let me in after all. (Turns out they're an honors college = free tuition = only Einsteins allowed in. While the company of Einsteins will be intimidating, the free tuition makes up for it.) And even if I go to a regular program, good SAT II scores means scholarships. Thus, studying physics.

Well don't let go yet. There are so many possible variations.
( )
[ ]
{ }
< >
even / \ (broken angle brackets...)
and then the flea market mismatched look
[ )
{ ]
< }
etc...


GAwd it's past my bedtime...

Two last questions (I think. Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes, etc...):

1. what's an architect, and how does he interact with engineers?

2. what should I have asked but didn't?

3. What color is an engineer's collar?

What's an architect? That's the person that makes buildings look interesting. To make some casually broad and sweeping generalizations, engineer's typically are not concerned with aesthetics, but only with function - architect's are not typically concerned with function but are very interested in aesthetics. As an example, Frank LLoyd Wright's masterpieces often leaked when it rained. On the other hand, you let an engineer design a building and it will somehow end up resembling a bunker. As you might suspect then, it is helpful to have both working together when this is possible. For commercial buildings of substantial size or occupancy, both are required by law to be involved in the design. On such projects, when the Architect is the principal, the engineer typically gets paid last. Engineer's like to avoid working with architects as a result. So, how do they interact? Well, there can be some tension, but not always. By the way, in the context of buildings, and architects and division of labor and such, the term 'mechanical' as it applies to engineers is taken to mean those who design the heating, ventilation and air conditioning (hvac) systems.

Having said all that, if you were to announce that you decided to become an architect, I would probably not shun you. ()

What should I have asked but didn't? I'll think on that some.

I was thinking more about your question on ethics today. That business about working outside your field of expertise is actually one of judgement. I had mentioned earlier that due to your training, you should be able to get up to speed in new areas without a lot of difficulty. Therefore, if you do the necessary preparation, you will be competent to do the work. It's when you say, 'I'm an engineer, I ought to be able to do this' and barge ahead without the necessary preparation (ie, reading of books, technical papers, looking at others plans, etc) that you are heading for trouble. The barging ahead part is easy to do, and one of the ways it happens is what is called 'scope creep'. You start out with a job that you're familiar with - then things start getting added until bit by bit you are pushed into less familiar territory while meantime the deadline is approaching so the expedience thing rears up. Every time I have gotten myself into trouble, the scenario I just described was at the bottom of it. It will probably happen again too. Generally it's a nuisance only, but when there is the possibility of harm, that's when you put the brakes on.

Here's a peculiar case of ethics that I'm aware of - it happened to a classmate that I ran into years later when I worked for Grumman. He designed a part for a missile (which is an ethical issue in itself) and he chose a certain aluminum alloy because it needed to resist fracture. Then, when the materials arrived for fabrication, the wrong aluminum alloy was sent and it was not the kind that would resist fracture. On account of the expediency thing, his boss told him to accept the shipment. He explained the difficulty and the fact that the part would eventually fail with this alloy. They argued for awhile. Then the boss called a meeting, explained the situation to the gathered roomful of people and then asked for a vote by show of hands who thought that the alloy would be acceptable. My friend sat watching in disbelief and quit after the meeting.

What color is an engineer's collar? hmm... probably the color of whatever they ate for breakfast, or lunch. This reminds me of something. I was completely unaccustomed to wearing a tie when I showed up for my first day of work after school. So when I went out for a hamburger at lunch, I found out the hard way that you have to take smaller bites, or loosen your collar and tie. Ties, or the equivalent level of formality in women's clothing are not a given, by the way - it has to do more with the culture at each company.

Keep asking questions for as long as you like

So when Donald Trump decides to indulge his edifice complex, the architect has to decide on the type of reflective glass and how tall the gold letters TRUMP have to be. The civil engineers make sure it stands, the mechanical engineers make sure its ventilated, and the electrical engineers make sure it's wired. After which, the architect takes much credit, and Trump takes the rest.

While I'm sure architects must be nice people, I'll stick with engineering for now. I think bunkers are marvelously functional, and I don't know that anyone who spent much time in one ever wished it had reflective glass, curvier sides, or 50-foot gold letters spelling TRUMP on it. (Though the doorways really ought to be higher .) Besides, it's an extra year of college, and I've wasted enough time pottering around in classes. And also, I wouldn't want you to strain yourself in not shunning me.

Hm. I would say I could just steer clear of weapons, but I'm remembering something about Pinto cars exploding, so engines and everything else is an issue. In other words, to paraphrase ancient advice about jobs, engineers have got to be above reproach in everything they put together.

I hear nanotechnology falls under mechanical engineering too. How? And where does biomedical land? I would have thought that was chemical. Except prosthetics. Gee - lots of things fall under mechanical engineering.

Credit involves one of those mathematical anomalies in that there's more than 100% of it, apparently. Both Trump and the Architect would take 100% each and then some, and the engineers being more modest would only take most if it, say, 80% each.

(edifice complex ...hey wait a minute that metaphor gets more rude the more I think about it ...well it IS trump after all ...yeah, good metaphor btw, have you ever seen clips of the 'Trump or Monkey' game? They're the only thing involving Trump that doesn't make me want to adopt a foreign sounding accent and assure everyone that 'Ah aim noot from eere')

How does nanotechnology fall under mechanical engineering? A number of ways, it involves materials science, fluids, tiny gears, propellers, levers and such, oooh - just many ways. Biomedical? I'm not so familiar with that. Mechanical engineering is pretty general. I think it's fairly easy for mechanical engineers to find niches in all kinds of unlikely places.

Here's something else about engineering in general - it's not uncommon to work for a semester at an actual job that actually pays - there's a word for it that escapes me at the moment. Plus, suppose you wanted to stay at school for a masters, say. You can usually find a professor with a research project to work on so that classes are free and you get a small stipend.

Speaking of ancient advice - the very first building code that was written down is found in the Code of Hammurabi. It goes like this:
'If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.'
But Trump wasn't around at that time, or there would surely have been an exception made in case it were to fall on him.

So when 'they' say "scientists have developed a new gizmo that does everything but the dishes" they are really talking about engineers?

I didn't make up "edifice complex", as much as I'd like to take credit for it. It's actually a psychological term for people who enjoy seeing their names in big letters on the side of buildings. Where would colleges be without them?

There's no Trump or Monkey game clips on YouTube.

To work for a job that actually pays... co-op? I've seen the word thrown around.

I've been trying to find some real live mechanical engineers to talk to, but only seem to find civil engineers and one female mechanical has-been. She says from what she's seen of the field, it's very demanding in terms of invading personal time. Except maybe research, because you can control what you do when more. Do you know anything about that?

...I've been asking around, and you seem to be right about the ex-military sexists.

Yes, gizmos that do things are the coin of the engineering realm.

If someone looking over a scientist's shoulder at whatever they were working on were to ask 'so, what does it do?' they might receive a blank look.

Co-op, hmmm, that sounds right. It's one of the reasons these days that people spend 5 years on a 4 year degree. It wasn't quite as common when I was a student. (the more common reason for taking 5 years or more was a slow start as in my case).

Trying to find some real live mechanical engineers - well, lets see. The professional organization is ASME and their website is
http://www.asme.org/
you might poke around some and maybe post a question or two. Its office is in NYC. If there's a bicycle club around - you know, the kind that would meet of a saturday morning to ride/race, I can guarantee you will find one or more mechanical engineers - the proportion of cyclists is extremely skewed compared to the general population. I don't know why, it just is. In fact, you could just ask around at the nearest bike shop. You could also find one or more engineering firms around the city and call to say you're doing an article and could you talk to some of them.

Demanding in terms of invading personal time? Yeah, it sure can be. But, that all depends on the company culture, and also whether you're trying to succeed in management which can be quite time consuming. At the same place of employment I have found people who were able to balance their lives and those who were not - so I can't say that the company or the field are to blame. Some of the best advice I ever heard was from an ex-navy captain at my first job. He said, 'this company does not love you and it does not care about you - it is paying you in exchange for your time. Remember that. ...And also watch out for paper cuts.'
Sage advice - he always worked during work and left at quitting time and always took his vacations. ...and always kept band-aids in his desk.

Incredible. I feel like I've been deceived all my life. I mean regarding how much education is necessary to develop new stuff.

's far as I can tell, ASME doesn't have any forum. SWE does, but you need to be a member to post. Other engineering forums are about, well, engineering. Can't really bust in and ask "Are you guys all male chauvinistic workaholics?" Bicyclists might work. There's a grand bike path along the Hudson River that I rollerbladed a couple of weeks ago. Overrun by a group on recumbent bikes. Asked them what the point was. Answer: aerodynamics. Bound to be some engineers in there.

Why is management time consuming?

Worked during work... that's a pretty innovative idea.

Why is management time consuming? First a warning - I am biased on some points although in the interest of honesty, I'm trying not to let those biases cause me to convey misleading information. So, as you may have inferred, I'm not keen on management or managers. Being a manager would actually cause me to throw up each morning before work. Therefore, you should not give too much credence to what I say about management or managers. I have observed two things that I think others would agree with: 1) Managers work longer hours and 2) their stress level is higher than their underlings - unless they purposely contrive to stress their underlings. Also, engineers do not tend to make very good managers. Three things.

It is also possible that some bias has snuck in regarding the various types of engineering. Particularly regarding civil engineering. In the interest of fairness and balance (and i don't mean that in its currently understood meaning of un-fair and un-balanced) I should be clear that I actually enjoy civil engineering even though it was not my specialty in school. It's the oldest of the engineering professions and is quite dignified. It has done more for improving human health than all the doctors combined have ever done. You get to work on really big projects if you want or small ones if you prefer. Also, I'm going to bet that if you wanted to remain in NYC, there are probably more jobs in civil than in mechanical - I'm guessing on that last one, but check the want ads and see for yourself. In fact, do check the want ads - see if they raise any questions.

Oh, and this occurred to me - you should be able to easily locate a mechanical engineer nearby with the assumption that there are no more than 6 degrees of separation. Ask anyone you know if they know a mechanical engineer. If they don't, ask them who they know that they think would be most likely to know one. and so on.

Also, you probably could just bust in to an engineering forum and ask an unexpected and direct question - what's the harm? Worst case is that years from now you'll be sitting in an interview, get asked 'so what do you feel are your strong points?' and you'll say, 'well, I'm not afraid to ask questions. in fact one time...' and you'll mention the forum and the interviewer will say 'oh my god, that was you?'

There seems to be controversy over whether the 6 degrees experiment was successful...

Two friends have parents who studied engineering. One brilliantly tried to be a civil engineer in Pittsburgh, the fastest shrinking major city in America, so he later became a lawyer. The other was an electrical engineer who switched into programming because it was hot, and is there still.

A post on an engineering forum is moderated out of existence and my log-in gets a message telling me there are issues with my account.

An email to the webmaster at SWE *did* get a response, and I'm supposed to be expecting a call or an email any day from the head of the New York chapter.

BTW - you didn't give any wrong impressions about civil engineers - or else I just missed them. I just thought mechanical would be more interesting and flexible because it's broader, but I'm getting the impression that civil is actually better in that arena. (Silly me, looking for the feminine value of "quality of life" in a male-dominated field...)

Well, as someone once said, or should have said, 'all experiments are successful - we just don't always know what they mean'

Now then, look at what you've got so far. An engineer who became a lawyer. Never mind the reason. It would be interesting to know how he has managed to co-mingle the two fields and whether he is happy with the result. Next, it is entirely common, btw, for electrical engineers to become programmers. They're often fiendishly good at it - indeed much of their training goes into it. So far, so good.

Moderated out of existence, you say. Very good indeed.
(no idea why, it just seems propitious)

Head of the New York chapter - ooooh Even better!

It has occurred to me that studying engineering can be likened to swimming the English channel - from what I've read of it. It's a long slog. that doesn't make it sound very appealing does it? How about if I were to say it is also different in that you don't know for sure where you'll end up - I mean that in the good and adventurous way.

I think the engineer gone lawyer was just after money, and still isn't so happy with the results. But it doesn't matter: no law for me. If I wanted to be a lawyer I could do it right now really easily, but why join the profession with the highest rate of unhappiness (though suicide goes to dental hygienists) and the third most hated, after politicians and journalists? Also, it sounds boring.

Really: electrical engineers are programmers in disguise? Interesting.

Haven't heard from any New York Chapter yet... I expect I'll have to nudge in a day or two or three. Those heads tend to be busy, I suppose.

What's wrong with long slogs? I do them all the time. I'm slogging to the physics SAT II, slogging to 15 pull-ups for Fleet Week, I slog through the layout of the newspaper every single issue...

Most things boil down to a slog in some form or another, it just depends on how long the slog is, how many moments occur along the way, and what's at the end of it. eg: I despise swimming laps in general, but I'd swim the same distance happily if it was across the English Channel. Know what I mean? High school math never fascinated me, but I'm finding it more interesting with applications to real things. So studying engineering would be exciting because at the end of it, well, you become an engineer.

Well, perhaps law would be boring. My only exposure to it so far, professionally, is appearing as an expert witness. (well, once appearing in court, and one other time that didn't go to court on account of the information I provided) That's actually pretty interesting. But, now that I'm really considering what it's like for the lawyer, I see what you mean. On the other hand - NYC probably has the highest number of lawyers per square inch in the country - out here, we only have a few, and they're not hated at all... except for one he's despicable. The rest seem generally honorable.

Oh yes, programmers in disguise

All engineers must be programmers, but not all programmers are engineers - so you see, it's the one-eyed person in the land of the blind scenario. At any rate, electrical engineers can be formidable programmers. (that's a funny image when you come to think of it - formidable, I mean - you tap away at a keyboard - how formidable is that? - come to think of it, one of those ex-military types called programmers either computer weenies or data dinks depending on his mood).

Well, advertising something as 'a long slog' just doesn't seem like it would be motivating. truth in advertising never is. it's worth it though. I had the same experience with math as you describe. I hated it in high school. I'm not sure I actually learned anything in high school. So, I had a lot of catching up to do in college. It's not the best way, I wouldn't necessarily recommend sleeping through high-school, but that's how it was for me. There just needed to be motivation. The other thing that engineering has in common with swimming the channel, I suspect, is that for many people there comes that moment when you're really ready to quit and in fact some do, but most go on I'm happy to say. You'll do brilliantly, I'm sure.

I have some very nice lawyers in the family - one even collects lawyer jokes. But he also claims he's always convinced that his client is right and quite frankly, I find that difficult to believe. And other types of law (real estate, taxes, elder care, blah blah) are mostly research, paperwork, and spouting it all back to people who ask. I think they need the high compensation to prevent burnout. And from what I saw serving jury duty... There was an excellent little scene where the lawyer tried to make the engineer say what he wanted him to say and the engineer vocally refused It didn't help that the engineer spoke only slightly more English than the lawyer spoke Korean (none)... *wipes away tears of mirth* The few bucks I lost serving jury duty paid for the best entertainment I've ever received. I didn't envy either the lawyers or the judge (I think he also had some trouble keeping a straight face).

Interesting, how a programmer goes to 4 years of college and an engineer does too, and the engineer comes out more highly evolved. (Data dinks? ) Seriously, I'm beginning to see that the one-eyed thing is no exaggeration.

Question: this "environmental engineering" - is it a branch of mechanical engineering or of civil engineering? And sound is mechanical, right?