h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Dear sweet Analiese,

I don't speak to the ages, any more than you do. I speak to anyone who will listen.

I try to say what it is I am saying and I try to say it so that, when it is said, it has been said in a way that does not say all was said but that much more can be said.

I seek support, consideration, amplification, contradiction, and denial. I seek to increase my understanding by encouraging others to state their own understanding.

Why have you chosen this particular clown, the man who does not know yet speaks what he thinks he understands, as the one whom you will never laugh at or with?

Is it that your understanding is so different that it cannot be shared?

Is it that your Truths are so sacred that they may not be known?

Is it that your history has no connection with that of mine so that you cannot hear the words I speak as more than grunts and groans with no sense other than that which you have already rejected?

Is it that you just feel that I am somehow your enemy, or perhaps a clumsy friend, who can only do you damage?

Is there nothing I say or ask, and all that I say is a question, that leads anywhere but to an honest response?

You tell children's stories to adults who haven't willingness of children to see all of the world. But, when your stories have been chanted, it is time for the adults to go to bed and dream the dream you have taught them as the children do. Do the children never ask questions? Do the questions never have answers?

Do the concepts of context and utility not shape the purpose of the stories? Is understanding simply something that comes, something one accepts rather than something one seeks?

Is the mystery always doomed to be mysterious or of no use at all? Is there no such thing as more or less but only here or lost?

You stand in the place of the spirit dance, but you do not dance and you do not drum, you do not whistle and you do not chant.

You are the stump that cannot be pulled. You are the place where people meet but never speak. You are the challenge shouted at the sun and shouted at the moon. Neither hears you, yet your shout is sill there.

You do not know me because you will not. I do not know you because you will not permit it.

When you speak to us here, you are the voice and only the voice. Behind the voice there is anger, there is love, there is respect, and there is awe, but only for what you have taken from those behind you. If you are there behind or beside all that, then you will not let me see.

If you dance your own dance then you have chosen a mask to dance and will be nothing else but the mask.

This is all so painful to me, that I will not continue, because I will not fight you for what you will not give. I will not give you what you will not ask for. There is nothing that is mine to give that is not already yours save the love I save for my lovers.

If you are backwards, if you are contrary, if you are so devoted to taking all that is there to take while giving back only what you will not embrace, then where is my gain in this.

Surely, my defeat is of so little worth that I have wasted your time.

Surely, my triumph would be so meaningless that I have wated mine.

The problem is, that I never came here to compete, I only came here to share and to profit from that sharing.

Nothing I say can be anything but another challenge to a duel. Such a duel can never be won, nor can it be useful to either party. And you say you do not understand the counting of coup.

Still, to declare myself the looser would be unthinkable, would it not?

So, I declare myself the looser.

Barton

0,

1) I wanted you here because:

A) I was lonely
B) I always respect what yous say.
C) I felt yous breathing down my neck.
D) I don't like hearing the sound of distant laughter when I cannot hear the punchline.
E) I owed you one.
F) I owed them one.
G) I haven't the vaguest idea.
H) All of the above.
I) None of the above?

Barton

You don't need to get snippy, Barton. This hardly rates as a duel. At best it's a game, something I thought you wanted to play, except I apparently don't know when you're playing and when you're not. I probably don't have the perception of your dramatic conventions that I need for that.

Now, I thought I was pretty clear stating my understanding of the topics you've raised. If you need specific clarification then say so directly. You don't need to embellish it with dramatic hyperbole.

Let me take a few direct questions and see what I can do with them just as examples.

"Why have you chosen this particular clown, the man who does not know yet speaks what he thinks he understands, as the one whom you will never laugh at or with?"

Maybe you don't get my humor? That could be couldn't it? But if you're not exposed to it, you'll probably never get it so just try to be patient. More on that later probably.

"Is it that your understanding is so different that it cannot be shared?"

It's way different and I'm sorry about that but we've been separated by millenia and oceans then thrown together for a few very difficult centuries, dramatically catastrophic for me and mine. The differences are very real after all that.

"Is it that your Truths are so sacred that they may not be known?"

The only reason my truths might not be known is lack of experience or comprehension. Most anything I say could in principle be verified by experience. There's no revelation in the Christian sense. There are insights, visions, dreams. If you had them you could attest to them too.

But many are family matters, not in the public domain. I think you'd be reluctant to share private things like that too. In fact I know it just looking at how you express yourself here within your "character".

If you want to know everything right damn now it's not going to happen. It never does.

Not only that there are some things that are mysterious or marvelous or incomprehensible for which the only words are meaningless ones. We have those words handy so we can talk about meaningless things. You just might not be aware of the usage. You might assume that you know what the words mean and therefore everybody else should know but that doesn't necessarily follow because the premise isn't exactly self-evident.

"Is it that your history has no connection with that of mine so that you cannot hear the words I speak as more than grunts and groans with no sense other than that which you have already rejected?"

The connections are tenuous at best and fraught with heartache. That's putting it mildly too.

Grunts and groans? Well, I'm too familiar with English now to perceive it as dog or pony talk, but sometimes it seems I might be talking to dogs or ponies. You never know. Why do they call them dog and pony shows after all?

But that's probably beside the point.

Maybe you think because I don't wax eloquently about the achievements of Western Civilization that I must be daft of something. Actually I have mentioned on more than one occasion my admiration for the culture of the Langue d'oc, for example, but that admiration has been tempered by noting how even though they were more closely related to their destroyers than I, they were still destroyed much as my people have been destroyed.

What's ironic too is that when you ask someone to define the noble things of Euro culture, they cite features of the Langue d'oc, but in a minute they're back to saying but that's not how it works in the real world. To which I respond, it does work and always has. But certain people persist in trying to kill it, trying to make the universe do their bidding all the time without ever giving anything back.

When the Americans went to the moon, there was some consternation among the Zuni. They traditionally hold the moon to be the source of the fertility of their tribe. When Apollo 13 experienced the explosion in space it was thought by many Zunis to have been caused by the moon mother throwing rocks at the space craft.

When Armstrong and Aldren set their landing module down on the mother's skin this was a very bad thing. They didn't so much as ask first, nor did they offer anything when they took 50 pounds of that skin back to earth. And Aldren's sanctimonious prayers didn't so much as apologize for the sacrilege they were committing but instead boasted of the white man's achievements.

Practically all these antics were regarded as white witchcraft and witches are considered among the Zuni as harbingers of destruction, not only of individual families but the whole world. This is why if you drive through town late at night you shouldn't be surprised if your tail lights get shot out.

From this one example alone it should be clear why it is often difficult to digest the things that you bring to the table so to speak. And I suppose it's inevitable then that you feel frustrated by the reticence that appears to obstruct your fine arguments.

But think a minute. When my online friend Kyaa and I were having similar discussions, he was frustrated too. He actually found my apparent parochialism alarming, however, in the course of our discussions he introduced me to the Sufi mystic, Rumi.

Now, I didn't know Rumi from rheumatism at the time, but I know a little more about him now. And most of his stuff I find quite admirable. Unfortunately for Kyaa, this took some time. Because in addition to translating things into English terms, I had to translate them into the "logic" with which I'm most familiar and maybe filter those things or bend the logic to fully digest the feast. That takes time. Like a snake swallowing a bird egg.

It's sort of like when white people say, "Oh what you mean is this."

No, what I mean is what I said but you'll probably need to do some "processing" to even begin to get it. That processing involves relating it to other experiences with which you are familiar. And if those experiences don't include something similar to my experiences you might find the whole process very frustrating. Especially if you're in a hurry.

Yet that's what I have to do practically every day to accommodate myself to the dominant culture you represent to me in various ways. So why are you in such a hurry when I don't immediately drop everything and pretend to comprehend?

"Is it that you just feel that I am somehow your enemy, or perhaps a clumsy friend, who can only do you damage?"

Whatever you might be, Barton, one thing of which I absolutely certain is that you're the Other, whether friend or foe. There's no way around that perception really unless I employ self-deception. Should I pretend you're not then? What sort of relationship would we have then? On the face of it, it would be disingenuous, would it not?

So, I don't know if you're my enemy. If you are, you're a very erudite one and if you're not, it's no big deal. I paid you a very big compliment recently when I told you you were beautiful. That was sort of stretching things. You're not really because you're not one of us, the people who are mine, and you might be very dangerous, but I've suspended disbelief and given you a really huge benefit of the doubt in the light of past experience. Mainly because even if you are dangerous there's actually very little damage you can do to me here. I'm not totally stupid after all. However there might be some real damage I can do to myself if I'm begiled by your prettiness.

So you've gotten the honest responses you allege you crave and they ought to be enough most of the time. Here's some more honest responses.

"Do the concepts of context and utility not shape the purpose of the stories? Is understanding simply something that comes, something one accepts rather than something one seeks?"

I can't answer these things absolutely. Sometimes it comes, sometimes you find it after hunting. Children ask, growups ask, sometimes the questions get answered, and sometimes they don't get answered, but one of the cardinal precepts of faith to put it in terms you'll maybe comprehend is that whatever you need to know, sooner or later will be revealed.

If instead of generalities and abstractions you're looking for themes or morals or whatever then it's much easier to answer the questions.

The stories talk about the importance of telling the truth and showing loyalty to a kinsperson. They talk about the futility of seeking recognition or respect among members of the dominant culture when that involves changing yourself into them. They talk about not fearing the universe and having faith that the creator didn't make a mistake requiring continual improvements or rehabilitation. Things like these.

As for the chants or songs, I don't do those things for you people. They have a power which you don't own and shouldn't until you've learned enough to be responsible like grownups, because unfortunately I don't regard most whites as grownups. I think of them as children, sometimes even spoiled brats so into themselves they haven't a clue about the extent of their immaturity.

There's plenty of proof of this everyday when they squander resources that have taken thousands or even millions of years to accumulate to feed their greed or when they act embarrassed when you discuss something as fundamental as sex. Our children will frequently ask newlyweds if they f**k and express delight if the answer is affirmative. Our children know how they're made and why and why it's a joyful thing, except for the labor of course, but that keeps things in balance. And strange as it seems those children don't all growup to be perverts.

So that's why you can say of me that, "You stand in the place of the spirit dance, but you do not dance and you do not drum, you do not whistle and you do not chant." Those things are for mostly us not you. You don't give us plutonium to make bombs do you? You have many secrets you don't share. Why is it so strange that we have secrets too? Besides what would we do with your secrets? Your power, your magic? What could we do?

I'm not talking about talking leaves or cellphones or cowboy cadillacs okay? Those things you not only freely share but literally shove on people in order to enhance your commerce. I'm talking about things that even you probably don't know very much about because of national security issues or whatever.

Well, I guess in a sense we have "national security issues" too.

Finally, masks have many uses. They can show you your own ancestors. They can make you laugh or cry or scream in terror. They can make rain so the corn grows even in the desert. They can give us insights or visions of that thing no one has ever seen and probably never will see on this side of death.

You want to take off all the masks, the layers of masks that conceal the incomprehensible then? Well, good luck in your quest but this sort of witchcraft can doom not only you but a lot of others too.

If you hear a bone crying in the dark and insist on investigating, chasing that crying in the dark until you find that bone sticking out of the ground in a gully bleeding, what will you do? Leave it be or break it with a rock so it stops crying? Think a minute before you answer because it's a little tricky maybe, maybe a little more tricky than you think.

Spoken by Barton--referred to by Analiese;
"You stand in the place of the spirit dance, but you do not dance and you do not drum, you do not whistle and you do not chant."

I think it may be stretching the boundaries to say this to another. It is something a person might say to themselves. How would you really know about another? We all have on a mask of sorts intended or not, being on h2g2. If you are soul mates which takes great responsibility and can withdrawl any personal investment in the outcome it might be said to another.

By soul mates I do not neccesarily mean lovers, let alone lovers for life. I mean the person that knows you well, can challenge you and can help you achieve your best according to what YOU want for yourself. Ideally it is mutual, short or longterm. If not mutual it's a mentor or nemesis

The biggest thing in Bartons writing that I have to work at is his perpective on time. That all exist now. I have toyed with ideas of time but I live in the present. The past is always with me and lives within my body. I speak, look, listen to it from time to time. I dare to dream , wish, hope and plan which possibly puts me partially and temporarily in the future.

Just because you do not sign up to someones philosophy does not mean you see no value or beauty. It is not forbidden to have a piece of it to keep close forever.

People listen but do not always hear. People really do hear sometimes ,but do not believe the same. To seek or refrain from feeling like you are less or more according to anothers thoughts, is not going to get you anywhere. The same as putting someone close to you on a pedestal will not get you anywhere.

Good communication does not equal agreement.
Just becaue we have agreement on a thought does not mean we will agree on how to ACT upon it. How we will FEEL about it .It does not mean we will agree on having won or lost the same battle. Just like we can have different thoughts and feelings but agree on the course of action to be taken.

The best teachers are students and the best students are teachers.

Abbi,

People are constantly calling me on having stated what I see as if I had seen it. How strange.

There are two responses I get: mocking laughter because they feel no connection with what I have said and outrage at having had the temerity to tell them what they think or how they are. In the last case, you tell me why the reaction is so vehement and so likely to provoke a long discourse on other things that I have not mentioned.

In either case, I learn a lot.

Is this arrogant, rude, or unseemly? You seem to fear it is though you will not come out and say so.

Yet, you will not challenge Analiese in the areas I challenge her. Or you see no reason to challenge her. Even though she speaks from a superior position in a rude and arrogant fashion.

She has a right and I have not. She has been hurt and I have not. She is entitled to pick and choose from our culture and I am not so entitled to do the same from hers.

She has the right to lump me into the mass of those she vilifies and blames, charging me to solve all the issues that no one has solved or to hold my peace. I haven't the right to lump her into anything or the right to have the intimate understanding of her culture and it's issues without digging into records centuries old and colored by prejudice, ill will, and deliberate misunderstanding.





Analiese,

If you feel I have a secret I have not shared with you, then why have you not asked? Or is it the impersonal 'you' that you (personal) keep flinging back at me. Why am I tasked with using the same sort of education that you yourself have had to take stock of all the problems in the world?

If I say I am Jewish, do you not take that to be equivalent to what is happening in Israel? Or, perhaps the Jewish banker who made it possible for this country to continue to exist at the time of the revolution?

If your people go back as far as the hills, where were they before the hills? Who or what did they take this portion of the world from?

Is there no history of tribal wars over little more than access to a river? Is this part of the state secrets of your people?

Do you want to know how to build an atomic bomb, fusion or fission? I'll give you a diagram. I got most of it from the World Book Encyclopedia around 1960 or thereabouts. The rest I found in the public library? But, I warn you, having that knowledge will do you no good at all till you understand how to use it. (Here's how you play the flute; blow in one end and run your fingers up and down the outside.)

But, you didn't ask for that, you asked for plutonium to make the bombs. When I am at the faire, every day I am asked several times two questions in quick sequence: "Is that a real sword?" And, "Can I have it?" The first answer is 'yes'. The second answer is either 'no' or another question, "What have you done for me that I should disarm myself to soothe your childish bad manners"

So, perhaps I am being equally childish for wanting everything to be given to me when I ask despite my search for understanding, with the clear intent of using the information for the benefit of all (as best I can -- have I mentioned my arrogance?)

Thank you for telling me that calling me beautiful was an enormous compliment. Now, please tell me what you meant by beautiful. It obviously is ultimately restricted to a quality of real people and not we white folk. In the cultures I have experienced, such a comment is either a direct statement as when a three or four year old looked at me in my faire garb and said, "You're beautiful." which I took to mean that she saw me as representing some sort of very pleasant spectacle. Others have said the very same words to me and I knew that they meant that what I was saying was so bizarre yet fully structured that while they could not accept it they found some pleasure in its existence. Your remarks hint at a 'truth' that I first began these discussions with you searching for some understanding of. Do you wonder that I was more than a bit uncertain what you meant when you implied (falsely) that the tribal people have no fine art. When you deliberately ignored or misleadingly joked about the power of patterns and their significance to the world, you made it clear that you had nothing to say to me that was not going to be mockery of the foolish fancies and superficial criticisms that have been the 'understanding' of art in the West.

I don't expect you to roll over and beg me to pet your tummy. But, I have come to you in good will (albeit from selfish motives somewhat similar to what yours appear to be) and you have greeted me with mockery and willful misunderstanding because, you say, you were playing a funny game that you assumed I knew the rules to. Well, if I appeared to be following your rules it was only because I was trying to enter a conversation that I knew had already gone on long before I got here. In such cases there are always rules to be followed.

You want patience, very well, you shall have my patience. I have a great deal of it. You want to speak to me despite my 'erudition', which clearly is not terribly erudite or you would be scared and not amused since I *might* be an enemy even (or specially) though I am clearly a contrary or backwards in my own right, as if you were speaking to the not-adults you tell children's stories to because you know they will read this, and then you mock me for speaking to the ages. I will sit here as I sat in the classrooms of my youth, as you sat in the classrooms of your youth, hearing the stupid things explained stupidly to the those who were not stupid but merely normal. I will mark but not remark upon the prejudiced way you shape your understanding of the world and refuse to believe that anyone is human who has not lived in the hogans, cliff houses, and tepees, particularly those who are marked, as you are marked, with skin color that says we are all Other.

Of course, I am Other. How could I not be? What have you done to change that? If you would see the tribal ways take over the world without violent conquest and you will not tell what the tribal ways are (because you do not talk about your family secrets) then certainly your patience must be so great as to bring into question why you are bothering to post at all?

Why do you tell your children's stories, if not to teach the tribal ways?

Still, I must have patience. I will wait for the semester to end and the next graduated course to begin. Hopefully, I won't fall asleep in class and force you to return the disgrace I have brought upon you.

Hopefully. I won't wander out onto the playground seeking to find out if I am the weird one or if there are others who see things moving so painfully slow only to discover that I *am* the only one. The one forced to be a clown because that is the only way I can talk to the others around me.

Is it just that I have disrupted your carefully constructed curriculum? It would not have cost you much time or effort to email and say so.

I still remember vividly the time a professor was 'forced' to tell me that the Shakespeare class I was 'disrupting' was not a seminar but a lecture class. The man said this in tones of admonition as if what he said actually made complete and obvious sense. There was nothing to discuss, only questions for clarification were acceptable and they had better be few and far between.

The reason why I remember it and mention it here is that it *was* a lecture class and I *was* disrupting the class for most of the students who simply wanted the lecture to flow into their heads and onto their notepads.

You are a student as well as a teacher. You are well aware that your intelligence and perception are far beyond most of those you encounter. You know that it is ridiculously easy to make your arguments because you are speaking with those so inferior to you in the areas you will talk on. Are you not ready to talk to someone so 'erudite'?

You throw back my own semantic considerations as if they had never been expressed before yet you ignore the fact that despite the necessary inaccuracy of any language, something is communicated, somehow. And, something is lost.

That bumble bee cannot fly. I have proved it. The scoffers laugh. The real scientists understand that there is something wrong with the assumptions behind the proof and begin to challenge them.

You cite those in Western History who have been admirable but eradicated and then you speak about Others. I don't doubt for a moment that you are fully aware of the implications.

So, tell me please, why are there no more Shakers?

Where are the Anasazi?

You finally began replying to me when I began speaking in metaphors drawn from my ignorance of the ways of the Natives. You had to correct me though you could have simply laughed at my attempts.

I spoke of some of my experiences with the spirit of the land and you said I might have a good heart. Later you said you knew I had a good heart, and I heard the 'but' and the fear

When I mentioned the the springs that ever flowed you asked me for some of my secrets and I told you I was trying to find a way to tell you. I still don't know enough about you to be able to use words in the way that will permit you to understand.

Well, that is not true, I do know the way. But I doubt you would give yourself over to my art long enough to learn how to learn what I am saying. Perhaps I will try with some poetry since plain English clearly is not the best way. I have said I would and I will, but *you* must use your patience. Perhaps, I will need to compose another children's tale.

I declared myself the looser and you choose to accuse me theatric hyperbole. How odd! I am a theatre artist, so I must be taxed with being theatrical. I am conceding you the victory so I am being hyperbolic. Shall I tax you with being so limited by your tribal outlook that you cannot begin to understand the possibilities of another way of life? Shall I sit here and type that everything you hold valuable is tainted because it grows out of your ignorance of what works in this world?

Have I ever used the word 'reality' without mocking it? Have I ever used the word 'truth' with out explaining that I accept it as true for the person that holds it. Have I ever mentioned 'honesty' without pointing back to my journal entry that deals with all three concepts? If I have, then do you wonder that my posts are so long?

Do you think I merely want to see so much of the screen covered with my words? Do you think I don't know there are people who see my name or the length of a post and merely skip past it? Don't you understand that I wish I could simply grab my Truths, shape them into a bundle of meaningless verbiage, throw them on the screen, and then expect everyone else to accommodate themselves to *my* life experiences as if even the words I use are not so tainted with personal interpretation that as to be nearly meaningless when expressing anything specific.

Finally, if I heard a bone screaming and followed the scream to where I found a bone at the bottom of a gully bleeding and screaming, why on earth would I take a rock to break it and make it stop, unless I had been taught that that was a proper thing to do when confronted with a screaming, bleeding bone?

Since I have never heard a bone scream (though I have heard a bone sing) I would be more likely to wonder about the meaning of a screaming bone and whether I were awake or not. I would have to answer the last question first before I proceeded. And, there would be many more questions to be asked and answered before I took any action at all. Why should I feel that action is required?

Is this a game of twenty questions? Am I alone? Am I myself? Is the gully really a gully? Is the bone really a bone? Is the blood really blood? Is there a rock near by? Is it really a rock? Etc.

My last question, of course, will be, "Analiese, will you tell me that story or must I first hear the bone?"

Barton

Analiese,

I will talk/ask about chanting and singing some other time.

Are there any of 'our' arts that your people do not have as part of the powers of the world?

Should I perhaps spell the word Arte to get your full consideration of my questions?

Why should you? Why should you not ask me questions in turn?

Barton

One thing I've come to respect BOTH Barton and Analiese for is their adherance to their beliefs and their passion. They may seem to be unwavering, but I've noticed some movement.

Like giant redwoods in the breeze - you see the base of the great trunk supporting the huge weight it carries and at the bottom of it all it seems inanimate and unwavering. Then you climb to the topmost reaches, way up to the top above the canopy and there you are swaying in the breeze, looking around you with a whole new understanding and a greater view.



Another we have to understand (and that I have come to understand myself since on H2G2 ) is that the hastily written word in a thread can be taken the wrong way very easily. You can't see the humour in someone's eyes, no matter how black or bleak, you can't see the slight smile on their face, you can't know whether or not the person's tired and has chosen a word in frustration that could be misconstrued.

We need to give each other a little more lee-way in what we type because every so often we resort to long threads justifying what we've written and condemning others. I've fallen into that trap myself and look back on that and feel quite embarrassed now. For any of us to get up off of our backsides (or sit down on them?) every day or night and write down and discuss our beliefs takes a certain amount of gumption and stoicism in itself - I know so many folk off-line who couldn't care less about what goes on in the world and wouldn't have a clue even what they believe in themselves, they just follow the crowd blindly.

We may disagree strongly with what each other thinks, but at least we're all here discussing it and sooner or later, most passionate threads I've read or been involved in do end up in some common agreement or at least compromise. It's just a shame we feel the need to bicker about it sometimes to protect our honour or pride or whatever it is we feel we must defend when we could be instead coming to some really great points of view. I myself (as you probably know) have been guilty descending into 'fight' mode before but at last and at least I looked back, read the entries I had typed, and realised what a waste of time it all is arguing on our own personal hang-ups instead of suggesting, querying and examining the ways of each other and the world.

I tried to answer your questions, Barton, and your response is to villify me. That's okay I guess. It wouldn't be the first time after all. More on that in a minute.

But then I asked you a question like you just said I should maybe. Like maybe I anticipated your invitation sort of.

And you answered that question about what you would do by sort of implying that for you the phenomenon would be the subject of a philosophical enquiry maybe. Yet I wonder? I wonder if you even believe the question even makes sense?

Did you know that it not makes sense but it actually happened? I heard it from an old man who was once a boy herding sheep in the dark all by himself. Have you ever herded sheep in the dark all by yourself, Barton? I suspect not, but that doesn't matter.

What matters is that boy tracked that crying until he found that bone bleeding in the gully and he was so horrified by the discovery that he instinctively picked up the nearest thing of substance, a rock, and smashed that bone to smithereens. And when he told his grandpa what he'd done, his grandpa said, "Oh no, that's a very bad thing you did. Now we're all going to die."

And sure enough, in four years time the whole family was dead except for the boy who lived to tell the tale with misty eyes and contrition for the impetuous mistakes of his youth that admitted no margin for error.

Yet he behaved as most people would in such circumstances. He encountered the Other and it scared him, scared him so bad he instinctively struck at it, killed it, before he even understood what it was.

When the whites came to my homeland they found themselves alone in the wilderness, in the dark, and when they heard the crying, they investigated with not a little fear and when they found the source of the crying they reacted with horror and loathing and tried to kill that thing who scared them. Smashed it, and the fragments are still laying around in the gully crying. I know. I'm one of those fragments it seems, crying in the dark.

So do you get now what the stories are for? Do you think they are art or arte or whatever?

It's funny too. Yeah, where are the Anasazi? Well, Barton, like me they're still around. They've always liked to travel a lot and when they have traveled they don't bother taking everything with them. Whatever they take the women had to carry on their backs so why take things when you can make them again at your destination? Mystery solved!!

It's taken many years for the archeologists to finally come to appreciate this simple issue. They would have known sooner had they been listening to the people instead talking so much, showing their erudition. Liberally peppering their inquiries with their biases. Then wondering why the people stop talking after awhile, stop trying to "educate" them who already know everything.

Sometimes I think you, Barton, frame your questions with such exhaustive verbage because you know most people won't bother trying to answer. In such fashion you then fancy yourself superior to them maybe. If that's true you're probably better served playing games with your fairy princesses than me.

Or maybe imagining yourself in Moses' sandals, all by himself, encountering that burning bush in the wilderness, that bush that talked and talked about freeing his people from the slavery of Pharoah? How do you suppose Moses knew what that bush was saying? Do you suppose that the fact it was burning made smashing it with a rock impractical? Do you think Moses burned his fingers maybe?

What would you have said to that bush, Barton? Would you have said something like, "There's already people in that promised land, LORD. How can we slay all of them, man, woman, child, beast, and consider ourselves righteous? How can we gain our freedom by enslaving others?" Or questions along those lines?

Or would you have done as the bush commanded you to do? Would you have been flattered to have been chosen? To have been deemed superior to all the Others and graceously accepted the gift of dominion over all the earth?

Now, maybe, do you see why I said it was maybe more tricky than you think?

Barton I was not mocking you or outraged.
I enjoy you and Analiese and find neither you unseemly.
I have seen all of us be *midly* assuming about another.
I do not think anyone has rights that others do not. I chose to listen to what others say, not so much the way it is said. Because IMO - Arrogance is always a component of offering an opinion

I took the phrase in quotes (my last post discussion) to be about the quality of joy in a persons spirit. I questioned how you can know anothers spirit and capacity for joy that without having been closer in relationship. Was that a wrong premise Barton from the start? I could be wrong!

If it is about qualities in spirit - I stand by my questioning how anyone knows what all anothers spirit is feeling. To me dancing,singing,writing,how your voice speaks,art ....is about the language of the spirit. If people can be like icebergs, never exposing the majority of themselves how can we expect to know the majority of the contents of anothers spirit? It is an honest question, not specifically a defense of Analiese.

Having an automatic mask on being on h2g2 (desired or not) does affect communication! We have smaller bits of information to work with in relating. That is not all good or bad.

If something is said in an insulting or abusive way - that is different! Call it. I have called it on occaissions. I hesitated but enetred a discussion with Analiese months ago in my journal over insults and name calling to others in the ASK threads. I had left the thread due to insulting comments. So I did bring it up.I am glad I did, Analiese and I have talked since... no doubt with some arrogance on both our parts but NO insults.I have "called it" with other researchers too Barton. I am not afraid to do so.

We have not been abusive on these threads. If anyone feels abused they should say so. Always. Insulting can be a hard one to figure for someone else. I have spoken up for others when things look clearly insulting and with no humor.

I also admit I am not always clear on how you and Analiese relate. I know I have missed humor, so I could have missed other things but that is between you two. Just as this part is between us Barton. The time issue I brought up is another discussion and I should have not thrown that in here, it was merely to say some lack of understanding or comprehending is not intentional but because we are differently oriented persons.

I hate using the *I* language because it seems like too much,mememe.
BUT *you* becomes a difficult word to use often! "you" is used differently by all, just as when you explained that to say "to Analiese" = to all of us.
Maybe there is some pronoun confusion also?

Thank you JT for that post ,it's appreciated.

Thank you all.

We seem to be talking *to* each other to some extent.

Have I really villified you, Analiese? That is, have I made you out to be a villain? Or have I simply confronted you with what I have felt you were confronting me? Have I minimized you? Have I backed off at all from when I called you formidible. Did you think I was describing you as some sort of warship or did you catch the image of me standing in the shadow of your power? Do you wonder that all that I say sounds Western when that I all that I know? Do you wonder that my values, negative as they might seem, are all reactions to the very things that you villify? Do you wonder that I react to being taunted for not having steped far enough away from the mainstream to be seen as something different? If you respect the past of your people, do you wonder that I try to extract the gold from the dross in that of mine and those they reacted to?

Analiese, I am often taunted with being philosophical. I honestly don't understand what there is to taunt about it. You tell me a story about the man who was herding sheep. You are correct, I have never herded sheep. I don't know enough about sheep or the world of sheep to do such a thing. I haven't a father who herded sheep to teach me and I haven't a livelyhood that depends on sheep to force me to learn or die. But I understand enough about herding sheep to be able to understand that simply knowing is not enough and that knowing I don't know isn't enough either.

This man found the bone and struck out in terror. I doubt I would strike out in terror. I don't have enough fixed ideas about the possibilities of the world to be terrified by a bleeding, screaming bone. For better or worse, my philosophical nature would incline me to try to understand the significance of something so strange.

Given the time, I can imagine myself perhaps digging around the bone to see if it is a bone or part of some other thing. I can imagine any number of discoveries and I am arrogant enough to think that I can make them and come to some understanding.

I can imagine tasting the blood to see if it is blood. I can imagine questioning if I am who I appear to be. I can imagine wondering if I am asleep or awake. I can imagine being concerned if this is so important as to allow me this time away from my sheep.

I can imagine trying to confort the bone if it seems that comfort appears possible. I can imagine excavating the bone and bringing it with me. I can imagine finding that the bone is a part of the living world. I can imagine searching my heart and mind for some understanding and some solution to whether this is a problem for me to solve. I can imagine that others might have better understanding than I and seeking out their wisdom. I can imagine being reprimanded for not having paid attention to the lessons that would have told me what to do.

I cannot imagine breaking the bone to silence it and to destroying its import to my world view. I cannot imagine having done so, discussing it with my father. I cannot imagine having heard that I have done wrong, not asking what should have been done. I cannot imagine having heard that the import was death for the family accepting that. I cannot imagine that you having heard the story would not have heard all the rest.

That you 'must' have heard more than you tell, says that you have chosen from what you heard and that these choices shape the story you have told by telling the story. That is why, story telling is an art form. Story writing, too, is an art form. You have not invited me to analyze your story, so I shall not do so any further (except for myself, of course.)

It is not clear from the way you tell the story whether the actions of the sheepherder were what caused the disaster or whether the problems were the actions he failed to take. For that matter, his actions could have been utterly immaterial and incidental to the outcome. You do not tell what kinds of death the family found. Etc.

You implied that other actions were possible and significant. You implied that I would have been like the shepherd with the rock. Perhaps you neglect to tell that the screaming was bothering the sheep and that his duty forced him to a choice, that his nature was such that that was the choice he must inevitably have made (tragedy), that it was his life and being, not the actual breaking of the bone that doomed his family. You suggest that his father might have been at fault for not having properly instructed his son. Though, you do make it appear that the man blames himself for having done what was done so incorrectly.

Am I restating what you said and saying 'this is what you mean'? No, I am saying that what you have said is not clear despite my having thought about it. There is some background information that you possess that I do not that makes this story so important to you or for you to tell me.

I do not sit in the circle around the campfire. I do not come like some hippy seeking the mysteries of the peyote ceremony. I am not some devote of Castenada's dreams. I am not the white man who runs the trading post. I am not the government agent who feels the need to make you heathens find the right way. I am not a legislator or other elected official from some other constituency investigating how things were messed under the previous administration so that I can make it all better without ever talking to you or your family.

I do not have a solution to the Indian Problem. I wasn't there then or now.

I only know that If I am going to help I must first learn what is at risk.

J.T,

You have indeed made great progress (in my estimation and esteem). I appreciate that you are trying to make peace without accusation and without blame.

You are correct that we are both massive creatures with our feet dug in deep and our heads in or above the clouds.

Consider that when you are high in the branches swaying on the wind, it is sometimes hard to tell which branches are providing the support and that sometimes it just doesn't matter.

Abbi,

If we don't understand each other, eventually, then our efforts are wasted. We all seem to be keeping track of the other. We each tend to drag the other into discussions where we might not have gone without that prompting.

Your problems with my concept of time, as you understand it, is as important here as it is anywhere else.

Whatever the original reason for this thread might have been, at this moment in time, it appears to be about communication. Communication can only come with understanding. In fact, by my definition, communication is the transfer of understanding. Those who stop with the transfer of information are stoping far to short or are making far to many assumptions.

You made an observaition and asked a question. I made an observation, presented some more background, and, between lines, I complained about the problems of being honest. What I didn't say was, thank you for being honest in return. Thank you.

Barton

Thank you Barton for being honest,interested in communication and present. I think that is why we are all still here, I hope- dare I say.... assumed so?

I do want to get into the time topic with you Barton. I also feel it is important and interesting .

It does seem communication and our individual styles is the topic at this moment. I would like to stay with that for the time being if need be.I think we all could benefit from doing so.

Even though we all speak English there are different cultural ,emotional and spiritual languages.

The Eastern and Western differences are often pointed out in philosophy and religion, culture. It is far more complex than the generic East-West example. We all have social and personal archetypes and symbols from our own orientation and experiences.


I see no mystery in why each of our stories do not have the same weight or symbology to another.

I see no mystery in why they have to be considered carefully.

I see no mystery in why some are not understood on any level.

Cultures teach through their stories handed down because examples are the best teachers. A cultures stories are filled with common daily life AND unusual adventure.

Otherwise life would have a simple rulebook and no questions.
It takes a lot of stories to learn about anothers way of life.

Seems to me all spiritual stories (fairy tales and fables) have many levels. If you are an adult and study other culture, you can get lucky and begin to see new things at a childs level. That is a start and sometimes it's enough for new understanding.

Goodness , city and country folks from the same area have trouble understanding each other! Men and women,young and old....

Well, Barton, I think we're getting somewheres now. Why? Because you reiterated that you're curious and inquiring and whatnot and into judging things in accordance with your heritage. I can deal with that I think.

Now here's some stuff you need to deal with in order to determine what's at risk.

The questions you ask about the background of the story are answered when you live like the boy in the story, because those answers are part of his heritage. And that's not something that can be neatly summarized in accordance with the logic of your heritage. Some things you just need to accept until you have more experience.

Like the boy didn't understand why his grandpa said they were going to die anymore than you understood. It was only after they passed on because of illness or accident or whatever in four years that the boy understood the significance of his action.

One thing his heritage should have taught him was you don't mess with bones, with the dead. Either because it's somebody trying to witch you or because it's disrespectful of your ancestors. You need to stay on good terms with those ancestors because they are living in you still, a part of you is them. And if you don't do that then it's almost like what your people call autoimmune disease, your own body is killing you. It's not therefore a trivial thing.

Do you recall all the uproar over the bones the archeologists plundered from the various burial grounds? Did you ever ask yourself why there should be an uproar? If you had then you know probably that it's at the very least a matter of respect.

What do you suppose would happen if indian people dug up all those graves at Arlington National Cemetary and displayed the remains in glass cases or stored them in crates in the basement of a university like those "scientists" did who violated the burial ground of the Chalagi at Tellico? These ARE grave matters okay? And that pun or whatever it is is intended.

But the bones also relate to the Other, because those people come from a different world, a dangerous world for living people, which is why the witches sometimes employ it for destructive purposes.

Do you know why in your religious heritage you're not supposed to suffer a witch to live then? I don't know but I think it might or might not be the same as with my heritage. I know when I make jokes about witches even I'm skating on the edge trying to strike a balance between fear and respect, so I can stay alive awhile. Being lucky with things, having the power to make things happen, puts you under suspicion even when you try to do good things.

Because again when you mess with the Other you're risking a lot, not just your stuff but your family's too.

So then maybe it's just a good idea to accept some things and not question so much in the beginning because often the questions have no answers.

Like how could anyone teach you Newe if you were always asking why a certain word meant this or that? Or why ideas were expressed in certain ways that were different from what you're used to?

The worst students of the language are the ones who insist in interpreting everything in accordance with English grammar and logic. They fail to appreciate the logic or sense of the language they're trying to learn. So the instructor says, "Just go with the flow. Forget the English whatever. Immerse yourselves in this way of talking without continually critiquing it."

And surprising as it seems, they start to get it then if they pay attention to these instructions.

But as long as they're offended when they mispronounce something like a hole in the wall and people tell them, "You just said a sex word," they don't get very far. They need to just let it flow until they've learned enough to understand what's going on and why. You can't really summarize that in a grammar book either. People read the grammar books and they still don't know how to talk.

So I'd say to you now, Barton, go with the flow. I can point you in some maybe fruitful directions and that's what I've been trying to do all along. But I can't hunt for you. You just got to hunt for yourself, find your food without questioning why it happens to be where it is. In time you'll know why, don't worry, but don't expect me to explain it to you now because I can't.

These things are how we talk and what we believe and how we live. Take it or leave it. But if you take it, ask first. And if the answer is no, then the answer is no, okay?

If you were to come to the house sometime, I think grandma would probably feed you if you were hungry, especially if you brought some groceries and were willing to share with the family. If you learned a few words of Newe or Weenuche and learned them well enough that the children could understand you, you might even be called Uncle Barton in time.

But if you just showed up at the door with a notebook or tape recorder telling people you're just curious, I don't think you'd be called anything at all except taipo, white man, and people would go about their business without dealing with you further.

Now, finally, what's at risk?

Just people, sort of like you and sort of not like you. People who live in large families on the remnants of land they've used for over 10,000 years. People deprived of their legacy, poor people because you are relatively wealthy. Why are you wealthy? Because they have been deprived. That's why. You enjoy the fruits of their legacy. You enjoy the credit and the resources secured by or extracted from the land. And your government promised that these people wouldn't be deprived to allow that, but your government lied and still lies.

What you do about that is your business I guess, risky business maybe. Who knows? I'm not going to belabor the topic here except to say it's about land title and who owns and uses the land and why.

But once the land disputes are resolved, then you might find it very much easier to relate to people like me, just as the immigrants should have done from the beginning.

Abbi,

To specifically address the questions you asked ---

I was not speaking about the quality of joy in any person's spirit when I spoke of standing in the place of the spirit dance and not contributing. I am sure there is joy to be had in joyous ritual and fear to be had in fearful ones. There is also pain, pleasure, and the sense of having accomplished the tasks that must be accomplished at the time of the dance. The spirit dance is not merely a quaint custom of picturesque performances, and I do not accuse you of thinking so -- I am speaking to those who might think so, who do not know that such dances hold deep and powerful significance to those Native peoples. They are dealing with the powers of the world. They are shaping the ways that things will be.

The place of the spirit dance is a place of power. Anything one does in such a place is magnified and thus it must be shaped or it will have unintended results, possibly disastrous ones. I imagine that to stand in that place and do nothing is to wear the mask of the rock. Because, one cannot do 'nothing' in that place. But, if the role is not defined then there are any number of possibilities that someone knowing the power of the place can attempt to control. Yet. to do it without dancing, singing, drumming, or whistling (and I did not deliberately exclude chanting or any other ritually powerful behavior) is to suggest that such a person is either deliberately not contributing and therfore weakening the ceremony, that the time for the spirit dance has not yet come, or that, perhaps, such a person is trying to do something by hirself for whatever reasons.

The image simply came to me as I wrote and struck me as apt. So, I used it. Evidemtly, it held some meaning though perhaps not what I meant when I chose it.

As best I understand it, all of the tribal powers are derived from story telling. It might be described, mockingly, as a kind of sympathetic magic, but I do not mock. If one tells a story and the story is true then that truth has been defined. If one tells a story and the story is wishfull then that story is an attempt to shape the world. If one tells a story and that story is a lie, then that story is a curse.

But the telling of a story is not all there is. The more formalized and the more participation there is in the story telling, the more spiritual strength it has. Thus to tell a story is less powerful than to chant a story, is less powerful than to sing a story, is less powerful than to dance and sing the story, is far less powerful than for the entire tribe to participate in the telling of the story in the precise ways that have proven or been given to be the most efficacious. Of course, the manner of telling the story changes with the way the story is told. It changes with the nature of the patterns invoked. It changes with the languages used to tell the story. It changes with the voices, the sexes, the duties, and the intent of the story tellers.

Of course, I am speaking out of my ignorance and the few grains of their truth that might have reached me. I am speaking out of the understanding that is my tool.

You will notice that I do not mention the religious significance of these 'rituals' because to do that would be even more ignorant and insulting than to simply speculate philosophically about the nature and purpose of the Native Artes.

Analiese mocked the significance we give to the way the blanket patterns must have a way out but the fact remains that the way out, the break in the pattern, must be there. If we examine the patterns in the blankets and the colors used and their purported significance, will we discover a secret, Native physics of spirit control? Probably not. But we will discover other things. We will discover secrets.

There have been enough public protests from Natives about the misuse of spirit dances to understand some of their power. There is enough open admission of power and it's misuse to be very fearful of what has shaped so ancient a people and what has been entrusted to their understanding and their keeping.

On another note, and a not altogether pleasant one my wife was driving to work when she saw a coyote or perhaps a wolf feeding on the body of a deer. It looked like a fresh kill, but the coyote was alone. She took it as an evil omen and went on. On the way home she saw the remains of the kill, the gutted body. This she also took as an evil omen.

We live in the northwestern suburbs of Chicago and while deer and coyote (and wolves) are known to be around, particularly in the parks that line the rivers throughout the metropolitan area. It is rare to see this sort of thing. I know I never have. Certainly, there are the usual animals dead by the side of the road or trying to cross. There are possums, squirrel, raccon, badgers, ducks, geese, and an occastional beaver. But there are also foxes and other small predators. There are any number of birds from sparrows to hawks and eagles. There are deer. And inevitably, there must be those animals that feed on deer.

Still, it seems strange to me because the pattern isn't quite right. So, I too take it as an evil omen.

Back to answering your questions ---

I agree with you, no one knows the depths of another person's spirits except for those few who are gifted to know such things. I am not one of those so gifted, for which I am happy and disappointed. I certainly try not to limit a person's capacity for joy.

So, yes, your premise was wrong. But, your premise must also be right, because you read what I wrote and that is what you heard me saying. So, the fault is mine as well as yours as well as the distance there is between us in space, time, and culture.

I agree with you that a person's spirit is best seen to be expressed in the manner of its expression though the nature of the expression must also be considered.

We all of us have many automatic masks, which I call personas, that we use as part of our process of living. We have a persona for a children, for our co-workers, for our spouses and sweethearts, for shopping, for praying, for meeting strangers, and for meeting friends. Each is defined by what it is we wish to say all the time while saying whatever else it is we are saying. Perhaps that message is, "I am strong" or "I am your servant" or "I am in control" or "I am responsible" or "I am oh so very meek" or "I am safe" or "I am fun" or "I am attractive" or "I am available" or "I am not here". Of course, most the time the message is much more complex than that.

So, it is not surprising that we have a mask or filter or persona when we are on line. Often that persona is very different because it is so much easier to be something other than what our being limits us to when all there is of us is the words we type.

I do not favor abuse of any kind. Being human, I must recognize that I may still be prone to it. So, please tell me if I slip in that respect. Analiese has said that I can offer her no real threat so long as she refuses to accept anything I offer. She is correct. Unfortunately, there is also no way we can communicate under those circumstances and that is what I have been negotiating all this time. That is why I admitted that I had lost. I made a judgement of cost and effort verus possible outcome and I decided against continuing. Now I am just cleaning up the loose ends before I move on.

Analiese and I do not relate, we bash, in an attempt to get to the central core of things but neither of us can bash enough out of the way to even see what that core might be. Her recourse is appears to be to assume that I have no central core, at least not one that she hasn't met and defeated before. My recourse is to face the fact that there is simply too much Other stuff between me and her and that both of us being essentially offensive in our defensive postures and offensive in our offensive postures there is no chance for us to occupy the same territory without someone else imposing the rules that will allow us to meet on the trail without trying to fight over who shall pass first. In fact, both of us would go out of our way to insure that we would need to test our strengths because we have no fear of the other and without fear there can be no respect.

I have no problem using the 'I' language which, in turn, requires the 'you' language. The impersonal 'you' is always a sign of generalization and stereotyping. Yet it too os required because we all voluntarily or otherwise belong to groups of shared postulates which result in shared behaviors. (Or you can reverse that last if you feel so inclined.)

You misunderstood me (I did not explain well). I did not mean to say that when I spoke to Analiese I was speaking to you all. What I was trying to say was that, while I spoke to her, I recognized that you all were trying to follow the conversation and that I did not choose to exclude you from following by speaking *only* to her, only in language intended to be understood by her. I was saying, that I was leaving bread crumbs along the road so that you all might follow where I hoped that she knew I was going. This is because I was answering what I heard her saying and not necessarily what she had said.

I have not yet spoken of my ways of seeing, hearing, feeling, and even, touching (seldom tasting) what most people do not. I have not because there is no way to do so without apologizing for having access to information that you all would rather not have known, because you never meant to do it, but which you broadcast nonetheless.

Analiese knows about it because she was taught about it. I know about it because I am too much a contrary to have stopped believing that I experienced what I did, the way most of us have been taught. Or, perhaps, because I just was one who was equipped to understand better what it was I understood. I can explain it all away. There is nothing mystical about it. Yet, I have used it to mystify and even to terrify. (Never let me read your tarot cards.) Unless you have been so mystified or terrified by something that could not have been mere dexterity, you will not believe me, even though I swear on all that I hold dear, that I am being the most honest I know how to be.

This is why I have no problem with a bone that bleeds and screams, this is why I understand the importance of the kind of spring I described. This is why I could hear the voice of the Oak tree.

My problem is that I keep trying to find ways to tell people what I see and feel and hear. This is why I keep trying to awaken the ability to see colors in those who insists that all is gray. This is why I wanted to be a nuclear physicist, (or atomic chemist or parapsychologist or who knows any more) but settled happily, even joyously, on being a performance artist. Unfortunately, I never made the decision that I was so special or so privileged that I was separate from them. I never accepted that anyone else was so special or privileged that I could be excluded.

But, I did learn that different is not necessarily good. I learned that lesson well. And that is why I can say things here that I would not say to someone standing next to me, even though I use my real name as does she. Because, like Analiese I do not fear anything that anyone here can do to me. Even more, if you come to me where I am, I expect that I will have nothing to fear then either.

I do not fear death because I have seen a ghost. I do not fear pain and injury because I am already so deep in those that a bit more would not be noticed. The only thing I really fear is being ignored, and that will bring me no danger either. It is my pride that would be hurt and it could stand to be taken down several notches.

The only real fear I possess is for danger to those around me, those I love, danger which cannot be guarded against. To avoid that, I try to love as many people as I can and to encourage them to love me and my lovers. In that way, they become linked through me and each other. So long as we remain alert, we are pretty much safe in our own company -- subject to the will of the universe.

The topic of 'love' is the advanced seminar.

So, with my 'I' being so different from other 'I's and since being an artist I am concerned with speaking to people in all my voices, I will fight the abandonment of 'I' in favor of more objective and inhuman terminology. This should be obvious, if you believe me to believe what I say when I say that everything is relative (including relativity).

Barton

(no spell check, live with it.)

Well, Barton, I see you don't read what I write neither. So this is probably an exercise in futility but there I go again.

I didn't mock you or anybody else about putting the breaks in the pattern. I cited them as examples of how you do what you got to do even when you're being paid to do something else. But you tell it like you want okay?

Something else you forgot to mention is sometimes the words sung don't mean anything. Nobody knows what the words mean but they have power anyways so you sing them verbatim because that's how you're taught. Like sometimes they're in another tongue because those people who talk that way have power that elicits respect bordering on fear even.

Every action has consequences. Everyone is related. Everything is alive. You pray to declare what you need. You share what you have so others can have what they need. If Coyote lives among you, it's bad and it's good. Bad because you get fooled a lot. Good because you learn to survive in this world on the dead deer or whatever or even the rich folks' dumpsters.

But now somebody needs to take that trail. Somebody needs to tell somebody how it is. Somebody doesn't get bashed but doesn't listen either so what does it matter?

Somebody might visit a spirit dance and notice that the clowns got their masks off when the children are around. So how can those children believe? Somebody might notice they're drinking mountain water too, Coors beer. Somebody might notice when they talk about the mask that sticks to your face and kills you and how the skin gets torn off, sticks inside that mask. But you got to breath don't you? Especially when that mask is choking you you got to breath, even when the skin sticks to it as you try to take off. Now that's a really bad sign.

But then somebody might notice those clowns putting those masks back on and filing out of the house into the street to do their clown things in the night. Somebody might notice how they give life to those masks, animate them.

Somebody might get cold and shivering standing in the snow all night watching these things and drinking mountain water if its offered. Somebody might decide they know how it should be and this ain't how it should be. So fine. Somebody tells it like it is then.

But maybe we should talk about the sunflower seed harvest instead or the weather, how it rains and then it doesn't. We can talk about who's going to win the superbowl. We can talk about the relative merits of chevys versus fords because it doesn't matter.

So talk on whiteboy. I'm around saying nothing, no more.

Analiese says:
"If indian people dug up all those graves at Arlington National Cemetary and displayed the remains in glass cases or stored them in crates in the basement of a university like those "scientists" did who violated the burial ground of the Chalagi at Tellico?"

***This is a perfect example of teaching empathy

Analiese says;
"To just let it flow until they've learned enough to understand what's going on and why."

***This is patient learning and listening IMO


Barton says
"The more formalized and the more participation there is in the story telling, the more spiritual strength it has."

***Thank you Barton--and yes, I believe that.
Maybe we all do?
If so this is why I want this varied group to continue peacefully to understand what we can about another.


Barton says ;
"And inevitably, there must be those animals that feed on deer.
Still, it seems strange to me because the pattern isn't quite right. So, I too take it as an evil omen."

***I would NOT see it as so. I see it as quite logical after we have killed the deer off then gotten to feeling guilty ,we have tried to allow them to become prevelent again. They did. All the while people are moving into their territory. We asked for it. I would take it as a sign that nature thrives when it is allowed too and that nature is severly encroached upon. Also that "nature" will kill a person or two on that road by having dear on it. That is a warning, hitting a dear is not good for all.

Barton says ;
"So, the fault is mine as well as yours as well as the distance there is between us in space, time, and culture."
*** I can accept the word fault although IMO- It just is. IMO using the word fault is not neccesary. I accept the responsibilty of misunderstanding and of quuestioning. I really appreciate you going into it. I did not feel that you deminished my joy. I can defer any cost to my joy or being until I have heard the answer. I did and I have lost nothing. I have gained understanding.


Barton says;
"without fear there can be no respect"
!!Warning possible triggers to follow within my post!!
***I disagree and would consider that the voice of a previously abused person. I know that the 3 of us have experienced abuse. I do not know about JT and he is free to say or not.

It is even more important and more of a challenge for such a group (varied and abused) to find an acceptable method of communication. The rest of the unfree world needing humane attention and a voice are also in need of a voice. If you follow any history back far enough chances are the peoples you came from, were abused by some one. If they were known abusers in time ,then that too has a tremendous price.

Barton says:
"This is because I was answering what I heard her saying and not necessarily what she had said."

***This triggered my memory of saying those very words. In my case ,it was within a therapy session (good therapy for me!)about a relationship to a close family member.

I was told the rules to dealing with someone that disorients you in conversation for any reason is;
1) Respond only to what was actually said.
2) Do not assume or imagine and emotional stance.
3) Deal with their words,answer only to them.

It will kept things on track. It will get to the bottom line faster and not engage you in an emotional battle of wills. This may or maynot work for others and may or may not be appropriate here.
I can say it has worked for me in close but difficult relationships.

Barton says "Never let me read your tarot cards"
***I would not. Not because it was you ,but I will not have it done for me. I became dissapointed with a friend who took liberties in doing so and wanted to tell me all about it. I said no. I do not want it done. She cannot be around me and honor my wish not to hear about it. It is her choice and mine too. I am sad that she cannot be around me and abstain from the intensity of asking and wanting to tell me what she has seen. Same person and same thing with my astrological chart. I have learned a lot about such things. Enough I never set out to partake in them for any control or knowledge of self.

(I pasted the comments to speak to and missed putting the speakers name here, sorry Is this ? Analiese? ) "Every action has consequences. Everyone is related. Everything is alive."

*** This I think we can agree on this one too! Perhaps we need a secretary to write down that occaissional agreement.


Before finishing I saw that Analiese has posted and does not wish to continue?
Is that true?
May I clarify with questions?
You think that Barton did not read or attempt to understand others in these last posts?
Is that right Analiese?
Quite aware it's both of yours choice to asnswer or not....


Whew ! I think abbi(not real name it's a mask) has done "her thing" as someone said somewhere at sometime.
AND I might add without fear!
I know fear. For me at least, that is not it!

Sadly, I did proff read that and I still have many mistakes.
I hope it's readable!

OH yeah I forgot,
Barton - I believe in ghosts and things unseen or unexplained. I am not afraid of those, I am in awe. I do not seek them. I have had numerous happenings as far back as my memory goes. Thank goodness none have been both disturbing and destructive. Occaissionally disturbing for short time. I have always interpeted them as a good thing in the end.

I could be wrong of course!

Well, Barton, I think we're getting somewheres now.
>>>Are we getting somewhere? Are you hearing me? Perhaps, perhaps not. It's going to be a bumpy ride. Fasten you seat belt. Please keep your hands inside the ride at all times.
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Why? Because you reiterated that you're curious and inquiring and whatnot and into judging things in accordance with your heritage.

>>>I thought I was saying that I could not help but see things in relation to what I have known, which is not the same thing as being "into judging things in accordance with your heritage." And how would that help you since you don't know my heritage anymore than I know yours? (Your question about Moses and the burning bush proves that. More is coming.)
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I can deal with that I think.

Now here's some stuff you need to deal with in order to determine what's at risk.

The questions you ask about the background of the story are answered when you live like the boy in the story, because those answers are part of his heritage. And that's not something that can be neatly summarized in accordance with the logic of your heritage. Some things you just need to accept until you have more experience.

>>>What must I accept here, that were I that boy I would have made his mistake, that it was inevitable? So that it is important that I should not be that boy but rather the boy who learned the lesson about bones?
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Like the boy didn't understand why his grandpa said they were going to die anymore than you understood. It was only after they passed on because of illness or accident or whatever in four years that the boy understood the significance of his action.
>>>And you choose not to tell that part of the story. Why?

I know several people who are convinced that because of actions and situations they were submitted to they are convinced that they must bring disaster to all whom they care for. To me, such a decision is simply due to not having been permitted to put the actual events into any other perspective. Yet, I cannot say that they are wrong and I do not say that your story is not true.
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One thing his heritage should have taught him was you don't mess with bones, with the dead. Either because it's somebody trying to witch you or because it's disrespectful of your ancestors. You need to stay on good terms with those ancestors because they are living in you still, a part of you is them. And if you don't do that then it's almost like what your people call autoimmune disease, your own body is killing you. It's not therefore a trivial thing.

Do you recall all the uproar over the bones the archeologists plundered from the various burial grounds? Did you ever ask yourself why there should be an uproar? If you had then you know probably that it's at the very least a matter of respect.
>>>Why should anyone question the uproar over the calous invasion and desecration of a place where the dead had been placed. As you say, we have enough problem just moving one of our own graveyards for something important like a super highway that must not bend for the sake of speed.
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What do you suppose would happen if indian people dug up all those graves at Arlington National Cemetary and displayed the remains in glass cases or stored them in crates in the basement of a university like those "scientists" did who violated the burial ground of the Chalagi at Tellico? These ARE grave matters okay? And that pun or whatever it is is intended.

But the bones also relate to the Other, because those people come from a different world, a dangerous world for living people, which is why the witches sometimes employ it for destructive purposes.
>>>Thank you.
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Do you know why in your religious heritage you're not supposed to suffer a witch to live then? I don't know but I think it might or might not be the same as with my heritage. I know when I make jokes about witches even I'm skating on the edge trying to strike a balance between fear and respect, so I can stay alive awhile. Being lucky with things, having the power to make things happen, puts you under suspicion even when you try to do good things.
>>>Actually that passage was badly translated and the world has suffered for it ever since. It should have read 'necromancer' not 'witch' (more than likely another problem with categories and ignorance.)
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Because again when you mess with the Other you're risking a lot, not just your stuff but your family's too.

So then maybe it's just a good idea to accept some things and not question so much in the beginning because often the questions have no answers.
>>> One should not ask questions till shi can ask them in the language of the study. Sometimes they simply can't be asked. Sometimes they don't need to be asked. But if they can be asked outside the language then the speaker of the language should mark down a limitation of both languages in that respect, because it indicates a blindspot for both.

Do not think that because something never was, it must never be. I merely requires a need to be recognized. There is nothing crippled about either language or way of thinking, but they are clearly not equivalent.

The reason I began this conversation with you is precisely because of this issue. I am searching for those things that are known but hidden so that they need not be searched for by either side. I haven't much respect for secrets when lives may hang on them either way and neithe side can say which way it will go.
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Like how could anyone teach you Newe if you were always asking why a certain word meant this or that? Or why ideas were expressed in certain ways that were different from what you're used to?
>>>I might well ask but I would ask myself when it became plain that my teacher wasn't interested in the answers. If I were mislead by my own ignorance why, who's failing is that.
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The worst students of the language are the ones who insist in interpreting everything in accordance with English grammar and logic. They fail to appreciate the logic or sense of the language they're trying to learn. So the instructor says, "Just go with the flow. Forget the English whatever. Immerse yourselves in this way of talking without continually critiquing it."
>>>They do not understand the idea of language. They think it is a code. They are the people who shout their English at the French because they just must be hard of hearing.
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And surprising as it seems, they start to get it then if they pay attention to these instructions.
>>>Duh!
But as long as they're offended when they mispronounce something like a hole in the wall and people tell them, "You just said a sex word," they don't get very far. They need to just let it flow until they've learned enough to understand what's going on and why. You can't really summarize that in a grammar book either. People read the grammar books and they still don't know how to talk.

So I'd say to you now, Barton, go with the flow. I can point you in some maybe fruitful directions and that's what I've been trying to do all along. But I can't hunt for you. You just got to hunt for yourself, find your food without questioning why it happens to be where it is. In time you'll know why, don't worry, but don't expect me to explain it to you now because I can't.
>>>Which of course, sounds like, you are saying, 'I haven't studied it well enough to be able to tell you those answers. If you are smart enough you will get it after all that five year old already understands."
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These things are how we talk and what we believe and how we live. Take it or leave it. But if you take it, ask first. And if the answer is no, then the answer is no, okay?
>>>I can always accept an honest 'no'
If you were to come to the house sometime, I think grandma would probably feed you if you were hungry, especially if you brought some groceries and were willing to share with the family. If you learned a few words of Newe or Weenuche and learned them well enough that the children could understand you, you might even be called Uncle Barton in time.
>>>It's good to know that I would not insult you by bringing some groceries. I could easily learn a few words of Newe or Weenuche if the children would be willing to laugh with me while I learned not to make them giggle, every time I tried to ask for a drink of water. I prefer to make childern giggle when I want to make them giggle. And I hate not knowing my lines.
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But if you just showed up at the door with a notebook or tape recorder telling people you're just curious, I don't think you'd be called anything at all except taipo, white man, and people would go about their business without dealing with you further.
>>>There is no way to learn a culture without setting aside your own. I've never been good at making notes because I can't figure out what I was telling myself. And what good would the tape recorder do except to document that I am not lying. I don't take snapshots, though I love photography. I don't make home movies, though I love the cinema, I don't record the music, I learn to hear it and then to play it. I don't dance -- I'm hopeless -- but I can shuffle in time and fake that I'm enjoying it well enough to fool myself.
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Now, finally, what's at risk?

Just people, sort of like you and sort of not like you. People who live in large families on the remnants of land they've used for over 10,000 years. People deprived of their legacy, poor people because you are relatively wealthy. Why are you wealthy? Because they have been deprived. That's why. You enjoy the fruits of their legacy. You enjoy the credit and the resources secured by or extracted from the land. And your government promised that these people wouldn't be deprived to allow that, but your government lied and still lies.
>>> "your government"? I assume you mean 'the' government of the United States of America, which is to say 'any' government of the USofA because the only thing constant about that government has been that it was put there by the voting public and evolving culture of the USofA sometimes known as the occupying forces of the USofA.

We've already had the discussion about US citizenship and voting rights so I assume you are also speaking against all the Native people as well since it is 'your' government, too.

I am as much the captive of 'this' government as are you, except that you are a member of the Indian tribes which has been treated as special and inferior since before their 'conquest' by the armies of the people of the US.

If you are a US citizen then you are as much to blame as am I who has also been lied to by that same public which includes yourself.

The simple fact is that this country is ruled by its majority which is, in turn, ruled by their representatives and those in whom they vest power. Since, to the best of my understanding, I have never been a part of that majority I have never participated in the government of this country. I still think of it as 'my' government, simply because, outside of my parents, I have never been ruled by anthing else. I have recieved numerous benefits and suffered numerous indignities at the hands of that government,

As far as I can tell, the main distinction being made here is that I am not a member of your ethnic group (in the pc parlance of this country). I am not a member of your tribe and am therefore an Other.

You are not a member of my tribe either. My tribe also has an ancient history that includes conquering and being conquered, being driven from its native lands serveral times. Having made contributions to the world and having been rejected as inferior specifically because of being a member of one the tribes, most of which have been lost through inhuman dispersals yet which still record membership in one of the two remaining tribes along with those whose families survive despite not having membership in those two tribes. We too have our own ways which are not the ways of those we live among and which most of these goyim (which might be translated as 'white men' but is most properly translated as 'Others'). We, too, have our secrets which are misunderstood by a culture than is too different to try to understand them. We, to have been given concessions to make up for the lies that the Others have told us. We, too, find ourselves submerged in the dominant culture. We, too, find that the world would minimize us and would prefer that we did not exist.

Of course, you may point at the State of Israel and say that we have at least had the recognition of the world through the United Nations, but then that concession came after the huge wrongs of the Second World War when a large portion of my people had the incredible bad manners not to have been liquidated and there was no country anywhere that was willing to take them in at a time when a group of 'natives' had an organization in place lobbying with the then politically acceptable idea that Jews should go back to Jewland which, at that time actually didn't have a government of its own. You will note that all of us aren't in that land and that the world no longer considers it merely the place for the Jews. You will note that our government, yours and mine, is currently involved in telling that state that it must share its land with another group of people whom 'my' people dispossesed when they were granted the right to settle in the land that must now be divided among us and the ones whom our government didn't care about then and which the surrounding countries filled with their acknowledged tribal brothers would not accept among themselves because they intended to drive the Jews right back out.

Now both sides are accused of attrocities because they are simply trying to keep or take back what they say is or was theirs and for these reasons our government is going to help them solve their problems out of the kindness of its non-existent and purely metaphorical heart.

I feel for those of my people who went there to fight for the old dreams, but all they have proven is that the old dreams cannot exist in the new world. The rest of us, are still wandering dispossesed, but more and more accepted though separate among nearly all of the people of the world. There are even entirely new tribes that have sprung up, converted to our way of life, presumably by some of those who were cut off from the rest of us, whom we welcome as brothers.

Of course, we were never so marked as your people were. We were never labled as another 'race' of men. We could pass among the Others unknown. This so reviled them that when one group of us was burnt after having killed themselves rather than be 'converted' that a so called holy man of the Others, complained that our ashes flying on the wind would now sully them all. The answer was of course to mark us, if we were not going to be eliminated yet. That marking was so successful that it has become part of the tribal dress of many of us, causing many others to reject all outward aspects of our tribal traditions rather than to be so marked (though some will still wear the traditional but not ancient skull cap or kipah/yarmulkah.)

In fact all that is left of our tribes, which have grown and grown, despite the predations of the Others, are our traditions, family lines, sacred writings, and the ancient priestly language in which most of them were written.

Perhaps we are similar to the Anasazi in that respect, but probably not.

So, let me turn your question about, suppose a man lately a member of a royal house but now convicted of murder in defense of his own tribesmen is living in exile from the land where his family is held captive. He has taken a wife and has learned the ways of the heardsman when he sees something remarkable and unexplainable on a mountain side. He sees a bush burning that is not consumed with the flames and he sees this in broad dalylight with his people around him. He leaves the guarding of his flocks to those people and approaches that bush because he is curious and feels drawn there. Perhaps he hears screaming, perhaps he hears music or voices. But, as he approaches and before he can burn his fingers flailing out at the wonder/terror he hears a voice telling him to take off his shoes because he is standing on holy ground. He obeys the voice and is rewarded with a message of his having a purpose to save his people, which he tries to deny out of fear and inadequacy such that he must be reassured and given strange powers that reside, seemingly in his staff. He is told that he is being addressed by his god who is the G-d and that toegether they will bring the people of the tribe of Israel out of the land of Egypt and into the land of Canaan which shall henceforth be theirs.

I know this is true because it was written down in our sacred books and passed down from generation to generation among my people.

What would you do in such a situation. If you were given a ghost shirt and a mission, would you not ride out to gather in your people and to make wicked Pharoh let your people go to a land that G-d would help them defend. One country, under G-d, indivisible, with freedom and justice for all -- of us. Others stay away. This land is our land. And it was, until G-d ceased to defend it with us and we were dispersed, came creeping back, were dispersed again, came creeping back, were dispersed more thoroughly and have not come creeping back till the present day. We will undoubtedly be dispersed again and come creeping back again and again and again.

Unfortunately, I am a contrary among my people and among all people. I have to ask why does G-d no longer help us to protect our land and to worship him in the old ways. I have to ask how much of our sacred writing was manipulated for the sake of those who sought and held power. I have to ask if those writings any longer express any Truths for my tribe or the Others who have attempted to take them from us. I have to ask which of those writings are from the words of G-d or at least the hands of Moses who heard G-d's promises. I have to ask if perhaps those Promises might have had a time limit. I have to ask if those promises were ever expressed the way we think they were. I even have to ask if those promises and that Voice ever existed. Then, I have to ask, given any set of answers, what that means for the present survival and nature of my people.

I was born in the same year that the present State of Israel was created, my rabbi or teacher at the time of my coming of age ceremony chose to take that as an omen and had me speak his words to my people about the significance of the State of Israel. I have no idea now what those words were, they were not my words. I did not know them the day after I spoke them. Yet, I spoke them with all the honesty I could find in them. Should I have done as I did? Should I have simply gone along with the ways of my people or should I have stood at the podium and spoken my own words. After all, that day, I was a 'man' of my people. I had passed the initiation, this was my first speech as a man. And, I am and always have been a contrary. What would you have done? But don't answer yet. You don't know enough.

I was thirteen years of age, the presecribed age. I had, however, not been properly taught the priestly or common language of my people. I had been taught to decepher the symbols and make the appropriate sounds with only slight hesitation that could be ascribed to someone with a weak vocabulary. I was coached to stumble my way through the ceremony and my teachers were always there to help me if I lost my grasp on the rote lessons or scared myself into the inability to speak at all. You asked about dog and pony shows. I was a poorly trained pony whose only purpose was to show the skills of my trainers -- whose only real training was to be quiet and to go along, eventually it will all make sense -- or eventually you will forget the questions you wish to ask because you will be too involved in the process of living.

So, of course, I spoke the words I was given to speak. I was not a 'man,' I was a pony acting as the symbol for a man that this rite of passage might be passed and the people could go on.

Does this sound like a lie. I think it was. Yet the honesty I spoke of was all the honesty I could find in the situation without bringing disgrace on my family and the memory of my people.

And of course, everyone knew it was a lie but a necessary lie less the tribe fail for lack of men, the same being true for the women. If I had failed then perhaps the next generation would bring sucess. What was important was to keep the traditions alive because the people 'lived in the traditions'.

Do you hear me speak the shame of my people? We are G-d's people yet our survival is not in that fact, or in the faith that that is fact, but in the tradition of the belief that that is fact and the history of suffering for those traditions.

Among my people there are laws, verbal and written, and there are traditions. The traditions grew up to cope with the fact that the laws were too complex and too easily misunderstood by ignorant folk, which most of us are and were. There are 613 of these laws by definition, not actual count, and there is only passing agreement on what these laws are among all the laws written in the holy writings known as the Five Books of Moses or the Torah. The teachers of my people, not the remnants of the priestly class of olden times, the Cohanim -- the sons of Aaron, and not those priest's traditional servants, the sons of Levi, but those regarded as learned among all my people (I hope you see some of the implications here), they recognized that the only way for the people to obey the laws of G-d was to prevent them from behaving in ways that might cross one of those tricky boundaries between that which was permitted and that which was not. So, they built what they called a 'fence around the law' so that anyone who stayed within the areas marked by the fence would be safe and anyone who stepped over, around, or through that fence, might not be. Thus, these learned men chose the path of least resistance to fence in their own people all for the sake of the laws of the tribe. We became the sheep, they became the shepherds.

Did you think the Christians invented that idea?

Of course, as the world changed, the repair of the fences fell behind. They fell down, were put back up, sometimes hastily, sometimes needlessly far from the source of their meaning. Sometimes my tribe surrendered their ways simply because they did not want to be mistaken for those who were not of the tribe. It became most important that the tribe should survive as intact as possible as much the people of G-d as possible, but all would be lost if they did not survive.

So while I am certain that I am of that tribe, I am not at all certain that I am one of the people of G-d. I am worried that of those of us left, the only two tribes that survive relatively intact are the priests and their servants. I am worried that no one still thinks that those priests are the direct servants of G-d and that their duties are so numerous and rigorous that they must have an entire tribe traditionally dedicated to providing for them. All this being necessary so that the people of the tribes of Israel could go about the day to day things that would support themselves and those others in the service of G-d.

So, do you wonder that I am here seeking everyone's truth? Do you wonder that I cannot imagine breaking the bone that crys out, as you suggest, like a burning bush in the wilderness.

We are different, your people and mine, because your people were forced to take their truths in little pieces gathered to gether over time, while my people were given their truth by one great act and which were then taken away over time.

There are those who say that Judaism is a faith and thus has little to do with it's original tribal structure. There are those who say that even that faith is so greatly diminished that it no longer has any Truths but merely ethical practices socially supported by anecdotal literature. I say, right now and this may change tomorrow, that the Hebrew people are still wandering the earth because they do not know where they left their Truth and their Faith. I suspect that the land of the State of Israel, formerly known as Palestine, formerly known as the Holy land, formerly known as the nations of Israel and Judah, formerly known as Israel, formerly known as Canaan, formerly known as whatever other name might be dredged up, is no longer the the place promised to us by G-d because either he changed His Mind, He went away, long ago, or perhaps, He never existed. But, the children of Israel and the sons and daughters of his sons were there before Moses and are here after Moses. So, don't throw up Moses as if you understood what none of us understand. As if he is the explanation for something that we have been just going along with without actually having an explanation for, for more than 2000 years, with tribal 'records' going back some 3000 years previous to that, if any of them can be believed to have even a shred of truth, reality, or honesty.

Since the day of my Bar Mitzvah, when I learned that most of the ritual of my people was only that, I have learned a great deal more than I knew then. I have even learned that the people who trained me did not necessarily have the final word on history, tradition, or faith, but I have also learned that there is no way to point the finger of authenticity at any given group of us no matter how faithful they might be.

If we bear any fault for what these Christians have been and are, it is that our ways were already weak when they were first used as the basis and excuse for enslaving the Western World and eventually the New World as well. We are shamed that we could not prevent it, we are even shamed that some of us thought it might be the path to the coming of the Moshiach even though it's hard to say where we came to believe that there would ever be a Moshiach or that there ever would be a need of one. We are even more shamed that if this Jesus was the Messiah, then this world we are living in must be G-d's paradise. Don't ask us about anything that came after Jesus in that respect, it had little to do with us or ours save what we were made to suffer because of it.

What's the point of putting you through this epic tale of tribal transgressions? I bet you already know? But I'll say it nontheless for those who lost track of the bouncing ball.

Here I am, a member of my tribe, initiate into many of it's secrets but still crippled by not being able to read our oldest documents in their original language. This means that for all my protestations of lack of faith and demanding answers, the fact that I still call myself a member of this tribe means that I still have faith it is a tribe and that I am part of it. It also means that I still have faith that both faiths matter.

Now, where does that place me when you offer some access to your ways when you say that I must first agree to accept that somethings cannot be answered now? That they may only be answered in context?

Would you care to go back to my original definition of an art object?

As you recall, I defined it as an object designed to teach you the language in which the message was expressed.

Obviously, smaller objects provide less detailed messages. I am offering you the chance to build a great work of art that will express everything that you have been stumbling at here. You can call that art object your quest for the justice of your people or you can call it the call to the proper tribal ways of living or you can simply call it Truth, because within the world of your art, it will be the Truth.

If you build your world well, then it will be but a small step from it to the world of your people.

I have said that you are already crossing the bridge between us. You have objected that it was merely a ford and will never be a bridge and even if there were a bridge it would be too great a danger to your own people.

That is where we stand in opposition. You have your vision and I have mine. You are truly formidible and I have failed to get you to lower yourself to my heights.

I will not sit at your feet as an ignorant student if that is the condition for you teaching me. I will not choose to lie to you in that way. I will be ignorant where I am ignorant for that is what I am. But, you will need to prove to me that I am ignorant when I cannot see that my wisdom no longer applies.

I am willing to admit that each of us lives in a different world where things may be very different depending on the language we are speaking or the way we hold our mouths. I do not come to you seeking to 'explain' away your truths. I come as a friend seeking to take what is offered and leave what is accepted. Clearly, you must learn from me if I am to learn from you because you cannot teach me if you do not know me.

You are wrong to think that your truths will speak for themselves if only I would be willing to accept till I understand.

I can teach you how to breathe water if only you are willing to drown for a little bit. I can teach you to fly if only you are willing to fall a little bit. I have heard the ghost say, I can teach you to live after death if only you are willing to die first.

Do you doubt me? Hush! You are too ignorant to ask the right question and you cannot ask it in any case if you have already learned the lesson for by then, you will be breathing water, flying as only a human person can fly, and living after death.

All I hear is that you don't know the answer and you aren't willing to speculate, to have your thoughts tested.

Breathing, you need oxygen not air. Flying, you merely need to learn how to miss the ground. Living after death? Ask the ghost, but the odds are that what can be said in the language of spirits cannot be said in the language of people.
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What you do about that is your business I guess, risky business maybe. Who knows? I'm not going to belabor the topic here except to say it's about land title and who owns and uses the land and why.

But once the land disputes are resolved, then you might find it very much easier to relate to people like me, just as the immigrants should have done from the beginning.
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>>>No time to spell check or even to re-read a third or fourth time. It's too long and it's too short.

Take it now. Or not.

Barton