h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Thanks Rev 50 and DQ.

Sometimes people ask me questions along the lines of who is going to look after me when I get old. It's true that I won't likely have my own flesh and blood to look after me- I imagine my niece and nephew will have better things to do. But all of the money I would have spent feeding, clothing, educating and otherwise caring for children... a good chunk of that will end up in my 401(k) account and that should last a good few years.

Sometimes, people tell me I'm selfish for not having children. I tend to agree with DQ that the world's hardly underpopulated, so it's not like I'm causing the entire human species to become extinct. And I do know plenty of people who've had kids for mainly selfish reasons (including the having someone to look after them in their old age thing). I think it's really unfair to judge someone's motivations when obviously everyone has their own.

Annoying kids are really only ever annoying if/because their parents allow them to misbehave and won't discipline them or tell them no. Gosh, I see so many of those. Any time I hear a parent ask a toddler doesn't s/he really want to quiet down/ eat/ be nice/ behave, I want to throttle that parent. Of course s/he doesn't! It's not *about* what the kid wants- it's about you telling him/her what s/he should do!!

If folks only have kids so they will have someone to look after them in their 'golden' years, than that strikes me as nearly the height of selfishness. And perhaps someone who really should not be trusted with the challenge of actually raising the next generation.

As to annoying, each child or situation is definitely unique. I find the bulk of today's kids to be brats that are too pampered and allowed too much lenience. Maybe 15% of those of friends are someone I'd offer a place to stay while the folks have other obligations. The rest? I'd not even offer them to a shelter, being far too self-centred and expecting the world brought to them at their will.

It strikes me from reading your posts that you don't really dislike children - you dislike bad parents and the consequences thereof. I also think you don't want to be one of those bad parents (as if you would be!) I also know some of your reasoning for not having kids and I feel that your decision is your decision and it's nobody's business.
I have in fact pointed out to people just how rude the question is when it's been posed to me - sometimes quite antagonistically asking 'how do you know I haven't been trying and miscarrying all this time - i.e. you insensitive adjective. Most people get the point and then probably promptly forget it.

On being seen as less successful - I know what you mean. It's like society views you as less than complete, to be pitied for your wrongful thinking (don't want to) or poor luck (can't) in not having kids. I wonder if it's religious? Ada/m and St/Eve and their offspring = family = target demographic = the only Right way to be. obviously many religions would disagree with me on my use of Adam & Eve / Ada & Eve / Adam & Steve, but I digress. It's conditioning, thoughtlessness and blind acceptance of a 'norm' that is old fashioned and antiquated, even if it may apply to half the world.

As far as I know, nowhere is it mandatory to have children? Tell'em you're waiting for that to happen.(I seem to remember something about 1930s and 40s Germany - women were rewarded / revered for having multiple children - anyone?)

Tell them to mind their own business? Ask them when they last had sex / did no. 2s / masturbated? Ask them if they'd ask a man that question or a gay couple or people in their 50s on their second / third marriage?

The statistics in use are also out of whack. Why do you have to maintain populations? Why can't they decline slowly? Why count only native children / women of childbearing age? Why not rely on immigration?



As you know, I have been preoccupied with my ability to have children, like you I am over 30 and don't have any. Unlike you, I always assumed I would have some and that it would be easy and would kind of come automatically one day. For various reasons OH and I hadn't gotten round to trying (recreational purposes only) and then all of a sudden I had health problems that made it quite complicated (albeit not impossible) to have children naturally.

While this was going on, a fellow mature student was unfortunate enough to tell me that I would be much happier if I only had kids. I snapped like a turtle and told her far too much, far too loudly, in far too many rude words. Lets just say I suddenly didn't have to worry about my overabundance of friends.

When my mum asked me the same sort of question later in the year I was able to calmly and rationally explain to her that due to health problems things were complicated. Now, we're sort of back to square one, want to have kids, health is sorted (in theory) and it's just a question of timing, which counts for a whole lot more than you'd think.

I'd say is never say never. Mind your own business. Live and let live. etc.

Oh and selfishness? You pay your taxes, you pay for the educational system (and in other countries, the healthcare system). You support their children, their children support you.

Seems fair to me.

Well, and to be fair, in cases like my sister's kids... I pay for their healthcare. And she's not the only person with whom I'm acquainted whose kids are covered by Medicaid. Not that I mind. I don't feel that children should be punished for their parents' mistakes, stupidity, insanity, inadequacy or rotten luck.

I actually thought of you when I posted this, Ismarah. You and Edward, whose wife had a traumatic delivery but whose kids are all lovely and healthy now. I'm glad that I got the point across that I don't hate kids (though I do favor zero population growth in general- and if anyone doesn't know what that means, I'd be happy to link to or post info) but that they're just not for me, for a variety of reasons.

I know that I alone am not paying for my daughter and her children's care and needs. They have more tax-free monies coming in during an average year, blessings of the 'state', than my salary, my pension and my wife's salary can leave us after the tax man. My taxes could only account for a fifth of their total income, which they get for ... ummm ... being at home and having four kids, I guess.

Hmm; interesting thread this; to PC for saying stuff that rarely gets talked about online.

Personally, when i was in my late twenties, me & then hubby really *did* want kids & found out fairly rapidly that it wasn't just a question of chucking the Pill away....after more than a year of trying, we eventually went the hospital test route, which was evil & ultimately unsuccessful.

I'd had two miscarriages & an ectopic pregnancy by then & was 'comfort eating' & i've lost track of how many times thoughtless people said "Oh, are you pregnant?"....it took a massive effort of self restraint not to simply punch them rather than retreat & .

As far as i know, i am 'the last of the line' of my family; so, yes, in some strange place, i feel i have failed.

I am now way past childbearing age, yet...i know for certain that somehow i conceived with my current partner; having been pregnant before, you can tell. It was probably the last egg in stock! He would love to have a kid with me, he has a grown up son from previous relationship & has proved to be a brilliant father; any time i put on a bit of weight, he looks hopeful! But it is highly unlikely to happen; wish we'd met 20 years back!

*But* on the other side, if i'd had kid(s) with my ex, i would almost certainly stayed with him even though certain aspects wer not working. Instead, i travelled the world, which would have been extremely difficult (but not impossible) with a child. And i am very glad to have had those experiences. I also wonder if i would actually made a really awful mother, given my history of having had a very evil one myself & having a short fuse & hating sleep disturbance, i certainly couldn't do it without a supportive partner.

So: at this age (me 53, him 57) it's highly unlikely to happen & we certainly wouldn't consider medical intervention, both believe children are born from an act of love, not a test tube & anonymous scientist.

I taught little kids for 18 years, babies in supermarkets giggle with me, but given the choice i'd probably rather have a kitten, puppy or donkey!!!!!

And it's Rudeness in the Extreme for *anybody* to pry into the reasons why *anyone* chooses to have or have not another human on the planet in my view.

As to badly behaved kids, it should only be allowed in the privacy of their own home. Teaching a child social behaviour is part & parcel of bringing him/her up properly in my book. The French & Irish seem to manage it well; maybe 'cos kids are accepted, welcomed into adult social life, but are firmly told 'where to get off' if misbehaving!

As to handicapped spaces, having recently finally got a handicapped sticker for the van, we use it *if* i really am having bad leg day, otherwise we just use ordinary parking space....but it's great to know it's there if needed. I wouldn't see pregnancy as a handicap, but could certainly be a hindrance to mobility, especially if she is carting other kids around too.

I actually like the kiddy shopping trolleys, makes the kid feel part of the shopping ordeal & it's not that difficult to dodge them, but over here in Ireland folks are very polite about such stuff, very conscious of other peoples space, always apologise if they bump into you.

I always give up my "handicapped' seat if someone seems more in pain than myself & haven't found any great problem with asking politely for help (ie: did 4 Ferry trips in a wheelchair; they were fine, we had great fun zooming around the ramps!!!)

....Maybe i've just been lucky?

zdt

I always forget about MedicAid, my apologies.

I think for me, coming from the odd sort of place I do, it seems almost unheard of in that context for a person to decide not to have kids. I am one of 4 as is my mum. Her siblings had 2-3 each, which in part explains how we went as a nation from around 50-60 000 round WWII and up to 300 000 (+!) today. It's a developing country masquerading as a developed one.

By the same token, I never really considered whether I would or not - I just assumed I would when the time was right and the time hasn't been right yet.

Of course, now that my health issues seem to be resolved (130/80 on average now and going down baby!) I should be able to deal with it in the usual fashion without resorting to drama. However, I do feel in myself an added pressure to do it do it do it now, in a 'get while the going's good' kind of way. Currently, the only thing stopping me is the fact that I've committed to doing a 3yr BA course which is starting in a week.

But I'm really scared and in a way stuck - I go ahead with attempts to have kids and my degree is b^ggered and I have taken a looong time to get to this stage. I delay until I've finished the degree and I'll be at least 35 with no guarantees my health will be up for it by then. So what do I do?

At least you know where you stand - annoying as it is for you to constantly have to defend that decision. I guess the theme here is that you just can't win no matter what.

Speaking of which - on a related subject.

Teen pregnancy is a growing issue in the UK and I believe in the US too. In the UK (first time) mothers over 30-35 are criticised for delaying unreasonably and being a 'burden' on the NHS! What's up with people? Honestly? So you're either an irresponsible teenage sponge on the system who'll never amount to anything (if you read the Daily Mail) or you're sinking the National Health Service because of all the complications and issues associated with 'older' mothers (if you read the Daily Mail). Again - you just can't win no matter what.

PC, as I said earlier, I have been asked more times in the last 2 months than ever before if I have children. The answer of ‘no’, tends to result in puzzled looks, but when questioned, the people in question say they are surprised, as I am such a caring person (I work in the NHS). They are surprised by this due to their dealings/experiences with me. They do seem to have a good opinion of me – although it’s not necessarily one I share. Colleagues & friends have similarly said that I would make a great mother, & that has come from those young enough to be my kids & also those older than me. I really feel that they have seen something that I haven’t, or maybe I’m just an unrecognised Oscar winner. (I would like to thank my parents, my agent, God...)

Some have remarked to me that I’m now too old & selfish to have kids, & that was just plain hurtful. How dare they? But they do, & they obviously feel they have the right to do so. Having children somehow makes them a much more worthy person than someone who doesn’t. I have been effectively condemned as a failure as a woman & a person because I am childless. Any reasons why I had chosen not to have children were null & void, as the whole reason for living for them was to reproduce. That should also be my reason for existing, according to them. So yes, I fully agree with your experiences. But further to that, I have been seen as a lesbian *purely* because I have no kids. Not because of my behaviour or professed sexuality. BTW, the person expressing that particular view was treated to one of my thankfully seldom tirades, but it felt brilliant. And yes, we are still friends, once the dust settled, & views were properly exchanged.

Reproduce what exactly? Many of the kids I see in day to day life are little sods, who have had virtually no parental boundaries set, therefore a majority of them act like spoilt, indulged little demons at home & in public. I would be affronted if ‘my’ kids acted like that in public, but some parents seem to take inordinate pride in that – Oh they’re just being kids/expressing themselves. No. They are inconsiderate wee buggers, because their parents are also inconsiderate wee buggers, & are passing on the same values to their offspring. It’s not good enough to merely reproduce, kids need to be advised & guided as to their behaviour, but if their parents have not been guided & advised, then what are they passing on exactly? Yet another generation of badly-behaved, possibly ignorant little sods.

I never thought about kids when I was younger, but being recently asked about whether I have them has made me think about it. I have no kids because I don’t feel particularly maternal, I have never felt ‘broody’, even when close friends were pregnant. I was curious, but not broody. I feel I have nothing to offer them (kids) but hard times, & I would rather avoid that. It has been said that perhaps that is a form of rationalization on my part: having thought long & hard about it, I don’t think so, mainly because even as a kid myself, I had no real sense that I would have kids, I had no dreams (that I can remember) of the ‘fairytale’ wedding & what came afterwards. I do not feel I could do justice to the title of ‘mother’.

In effect, it’s horses for courses, as someone has already said. But the fact that it is often taken as the *only* way to live your life as an adult female, can be, frankly, insulting & derogatory. I feel my life is no less rich for not having children. If I have a maternal aspect to me, it seems to be expressed through my work. I have a lot of contact with my nephew, whom I love & treasure as a wee person in his own right. He’s brilliant. But if he acts up in public or at home, he will be told, & he knows that. And in agreement with others before me, I also like to hand him back at the end of the day. BTW, when I was asked to be his guardian if anything happened to his parents, there was no hesitation in my agreement to that. I do not dislike children as a whole (far from it), rather I tend to take them on an individual basis. Some are great, some are not.

Please do not take this as an attack on mothers in general, because it’s certainly not. Mothers can’t be replaced. It is a reply to what I perceive to be society’s reaction to childless females through my personal experiences. As for ‘who is going to look after me in my old age?’ If that is the only reason for having kids, then surely that is the most selfish & inappropriate reason ever. But what do I know?

anne,

(waiting for the fallout on this)

Fallou from me is



zdt (sorta stepmother to several non-biological grown up kids, teacher of hundreds, still a big kid herself, undergoing 2nd childhood!*)

Anne - I think in any other location there might be fallout from other people's stupidity (maybe they are the people raising the children we don't like?) but here, I very much doubt it unless PC gets gatecrashed.

All the stuff I tell you guys, I don't normally parade, so all people usually know is that I don't have children and I don't elaborate on any plans to have them. So I am familiar with the attitudes and it's struck me that the people that have that particular attitude are people with whom I wouldn't have anything in common anyway. I might urinate on them should they spontaneously combust, but that would be from a perverse pleasure in showing up the blummin cows. And that's how I think of them - cows. Great big empty headed creatures whose only value is that they've successfully popped out more sprogs than I. Remember, a cow is put down when it can't calf anymore...

At least I'm a well rounded person, even if I am slightly bitchy at times.


The only thing that made me think about having kids in a new light was actually this year. Not only has it been a bad one for me in terms of health, a lot of family and friends have unfortunately died, some in great old age and others very unexpectedly.

My OH is an only child and his mother is also an only child. My mother is one of 4, as am I. When my MIL and my OH have to deal with these sorts of things, there's no one to share the burden (except spouses) and no one left that remembers what gran's laugh sounds like and that time she caught you messing up her beloved garden, etc. But me and my mother have that - we are not alone. (For arguments sake, assume normal healthy families with only standard skeletons in closets, healthy parenting and generally good seeds all round - the only difference is OH and MIL are 1/1 and me and my mum are 1/4).

Note that I'm not saying that it was easier for the people that died that had more children than the ones that only had one, that they were better taken care of or anything - just that for the survivors things were easier in numbers.

If you have no children, there is no need for them to share anything and you can make your own arrangements for yourself.

If you have one child, that child takes on all the niggles, responsibilities and sorrow on their own and no one shares their (childhood) memories.

If you have more than one child, they can team up against you or with you, they can share the care and feeding of middle aged and upwards parents does anyone else get constant requests for IT support? as well as having someone to reminisce with once you're gone.

I realise that my argument is flawed and weak because not all families are healthy and happy and so on. But then isn't that the thing that bugs us about children anyway? That we were brought up better than the dysfunctional people that are bringing up these children?

Thank you to Anne, Terri and Ismarah. Anne, thanks for popping by my journal and contributing such a thoughtful piece. I posted this here in my journal (although I agree with Psycorp that it'd get more input elsewhere) specifically because the people who regularly read my journals are the sort of people I can count on to discuss sensitive things with courtesy and respect. You don't need to worry about any fallout here... though I'd be interested in hearing from people who think that remaining childless is unnatural or "wrong" or selfish, anyone who barged in with a personal attack would be summarily ripped a new one.

I don't have much else to add right now except that's it's nice to hear from people who understand but who don't necessarily resort to the hateful stuff I saw on some of those child-free community sites.

Without having an opinion on your situation or general state of mind...and *definitely* without being judgemental...

The overwhelming majority of heterosexual - and many homosexual - homo sapiens do want and do have children. This has been true since the - well birth of the species. Obviously. Many who can't have them are desperate for them.

You are different. And that's fine. Are there any reasons you can think of for this difference? Anything in your life history? Your current situation? Your biology?

In other words...are you able to help us understand your feelings any better by unpacking 'I just don't want them'? I'm not for one minute trying to get you to change your mind - but this might tell you stuff about yourself...and that's always good.

Although this sounds way to personal for hootoo.)

Do we agree with Philip Larkin?

http://www.tetrameter.com/larkin.htm

No I don't agree with Philip Larkin.

I was committed to not having children for years and years and years. Then suddenly - bam! - the desire grew and I now have the Gruesome Twosome. But all those years when I was married without children I got The Big Question all the time.

Often i just told people to F-k off. Other times I'd invent really gruesome "womens' troubles stories" to squick them out.

Basically I don't care if people want children or not it's a personal decision and that's it.

Good for you. And I bet calling your twosome 'Gruesome' is just a front, too.

>You are different. And that's fine. Are there any reasons you can think of for this difference? Anything in your life history? Your current situation? Your biology?

There's nothing in my life history that made me decide against kids. In fact, until my mid-twenties, I pretty much assumed I'd have them, like most people. I never doubted that I'd be a good parent just because my own parents might have had their own shortcomings or whatever.

My biology? There's nothing to stop me other than the IUD I had put in earlier this year specifically to prevent it.

My current situation? Yes, of course. There's no way we could maintain our lifestyle with kids around. I like my life the way it is. Not sure why that's not enough for most people.

And we both favor zero population growth; given that some people have more, that means some shouldn't have any. I'm willing to be one of those people for the sake of the other species on earth.

>>My current situation? Yes, of course. There's no way we could maintain our lifestyle with kids around.

Well...duh. My whole lifestyle's changed. When did I last go to the cinema? To a gig? To a restaurant for an evening meal, other than on busiiness? On holiday to Greece...etc. etc.

(btw...by 'biology' I really meant psychology. Same thing. I could have said genes.)

I don't agree with PL.

I may be effed up and some of that may be down to my parents and some of it down to myself and some of it down to events / circumstance.

But even if sometimes I wasn't happy with them and their efforts, I know they did their best. And I know their parents did, too. And I know I will if I have the opportunity.

But I sometimes feel like I should apologise for this - too many people maybe do agree with him?

Are we at the stage yet where crappy parenting is the norm? Where those of us that have parents that tried their best and those of us that are decent parents are the exception?
I'd hate to think that was the case, but then why do I feel like I should apologise?