h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Here we go again...






Just grow up. The lot of you. Well, Spook and Hoovooloo (Tango seems to have relaxed a bit).

Those yawns look a lot like a bald male-voice choir...

"i am fed up of hvl and his arrogant, rude and insulting nature and posts. I ain't being contructive, i am posting out of anger as i have had enough. there is no point posting anything contructive to someone who's too blind to see when they are wrong, and only respons in an insulting nature."

In which case spook I would advise you post nothing at all.

...when you are angry - that is.

"Tango seems to have relaxed a bit"

He isn't actually online at the moment though, so maybe you hould reserve judgment until his return.

i ain't going to relax verc. every post hvl has posted directed to me in the last 6 months or so has been insulting in some way or another. fortunately i ain't seen him much, but hey, guess what, it's all built up and since he has posted so many insulting posts towards me i've simply had enough. i ain't going to relax about this. hvl hs gone too far.

spook

Shame everyone posting here couldn't put the same effort into PR, or WW, or CWW.

Or Charity work.

Or their own lives.

T****rs.

Spook - Please relax. *sighs* I can see how the problems in Northern Ireland and Israel come about. This is what Hoovooloo wants. Relax, I emplore you, relax!

Spook,

I strongly suggest that you wait for a few minutes until you've calmed down - you'll later regret almost anything that you post just now.

RhoMuNuQ

"Shame everyone posting here couldn't put the same effort into PR, or WW, or CWW."

Are you sure that would be a good thing, Dr MT?

I do wish this lot would shut up, though... unsubscribe is looming.

~

Information request.

Hoovooloo, is your anger with Tango based on a position that you have never lied about Spook or on a position that you have never lied about someone other than yourself?

Tango's original statement that you're objecting to began with the word 'everything'. That's obviously untrue. You seem to be replacing 'everything' with 'nothing'. That can be neither proven nor disproven with all of the hidden posts. How big is your 'nothing'? Tango or everyone who is not yoo?

BTW, 'pukka' made me reach for my dictionary. Most people can't do that. Good job.

HVL clearly isn't going to claim that he's never lied about someone other than himself, as there are posts on this site where he admits to doing so quite freely. Frankly, I wouldn't believe *anyone* who claimed that they'd never lied about someone else.

As far as I can tell, HVL has taken insult from the fact that Tango claimed that *everything* HVL has said about Spook was a lie.

Now, while that is clearly untrue, I really don't think that anyone seriously thought that Tango intended the statement as anything other than an angry hyperbole.

However, even when taken as hyperbole, the statement is still rather insulting -- even if the reader assumes that it's unlikely that every single word HVL has ever uttered about Spook truly is a lie, Tango has clearly implied that HVL lies about Spook more often than he tells the truth.

Personally, if someone I respect were to throw such an insult at me, I would expect them to immediately back their statement up with proof -- not only is the statement personally insulting, but I'd think that both I and the people observing deserve to see the evidence, so that they can judge for themselves.

On the other hand, if the insult is coming from someone for whom I don't have much in the way of respect, I'd really feel that all of this action was giving the person too much power and validity. Unpleasant statements from someone I don't respect aren't something to get all insulted by, they're generally something to snort at and shrug off.

I'm not one for demanding apologies, though, as I've seen in the past that they aren't really worth a crushed nickel unless freely given.

Just my

Mikey wrote:

"Personally, if someone I respect were to throw such an insult at me, I would expect them to immediately back their statement up with proof -- not only is the statement personally insulting, but I'd think that both I and the people observing deserve to see the evidence, so that they can judge for themselves."

Which is, is it not, precisely what I did? And you correctly imply that I did so because I had (note tense) a degree of respect for Tango. If I regarded him as an illiterate immature cretin who is a waste of the oxygen he sucks up with his every worthless breath, I'd probably have just posted something along the lines of "Constructive and mature as I have come to expect from you Tango, you certainly don't disappoint.", and left it at that.

My mistake, obviously, was take Tango for something approaching an adult and engage with him accordingly. However, this mistake has been pointed out to me in an email from the h2g2 Editors who have specifically mentioned the fact that Tango is only a child and therefore not responsible for his actions.

I hope he thanks them for this special consideration and protective treatment. I do hope that when he eventually grows up he understands that only children get this sort of protection, and he cannot rely on it forever.

The difficulty I have now is that, despite my being able to see now, as a result of his behaviour, that Tango is no more worthy of respect than any other of the trivial kiddies whose ill-educated witterings infest the pages of h2g2, I cannot in good conscience simply back down and give up on getting the apology and retraction I deserve. To do so would be to teach a very bad lesson to a young and impressionable child at a crucial early stage in his progress toward growing up. Learning to take responsibility for one's own actions is one of the most important things adults such as myself need to teach to children like Tango. I for one shall not shirk this responsibility.

I would, however, accept an apology from Tango's parents, if he truly is (as the h2g2 Editors' email implied) too young for me to be talking to about this.

H.

This raises a difficult issue on Hootoo and on the Internet generally.

No-one has to state their age on the site - I certainly don't - and so we judge people by the quality of their postings only. People under 18 can be given positions of responsibility on the site, and we expect them to meet the same standards as adult volunteers. In theory.

That's the rule, but then we get to the exception.

In the sort of situation we have here, real life intrudes, and different treatment for adults and minors begins to become relevant.

Although, as you rightly point out HVL, it is important to learn that in adult life you do not accuse people of lying lightly, it is also important for adults to accept that in this sort of unequal combat, beyond a certain point there is little utility in taking things further. There are few things in life more stubborn than a teenager, and realistically it is going to be down to the adult to find a way out in these circumstances.

For what it is worth, I would suspect that the lesson has been partially learnt in this case, and that the rest of the lesson is unlearnable from any methods available on an Internet site. I also second Mikey's point about the value of a forced apology. Worthless, in my opinion.

Sprout

I would question whether Tango *should* be treated as a child. He's 15- a couple of months and he can leave school, work, join the Army, legally father children.

Over the long period of time he's been on site, he's proven he can act and work as an adult- his work in the volunteer schemes is up to scratch, as far as I've ever seen, he writes clearly, concisely and intelligently. If he *can* apply himself as an adult, why should he then be given the priveledges/allowances of youth? He's not like Spook, who's age shows through his writing style, I'd wager that without looking at his PS, a Researcher wouldn't guess Tango to be 15.

"in adult life you do not accuse people of lying lightly"

Although you are saying that children should learn this, that really doesn't cover the fact that there are adults round here in positions of resposibility who are lying and accusing honest and truthful people of lying instead. Most attempts to point this out have been moderated because it is something they wish to conceal rather than fix. So when and how do you suppose they are going to learn to behave better?

"In the sort of situation we have here, real life intrudes, and different treatment for adults and minors begins to become relevant."

I still fail to see how real life intrudes. We're exchanging short text messages - how is the relative age of participants relevant? Surely the only criteria should be the correctness or otherwise of the arguments presented? I for one did not consider Tango's age (which he chooses to reveal on his personal space) in the least relevant until h2g2's Editors brought it up in their email to me. I have had productive and entertaining discussions with other h2g2 users younger than Tango. I am not prejudiced based on age.

But if *I* were a child like Tango I should feel patronised in the extreme by the Editors' intervention on his behalf. The implication is clearly that he is not responsible enough to be trusted to conduct himself properly, and if his irresponsibility leads to unpleasant consequences, adults must intervene to protect him.

"Although, as you rightly point out HVL, it is important to learn that in adult life you do not accuse people of lying lightly, it is also important for adults to accept that in this sort of unequal combat,"

In what way is this "combat", as you characterise it, unequal?

I am not "larger" on h2g2 than Tango. I am not "heavier". I am not "older". Our entire presence here, both of us, is our words on the screen. If Tango is unable to summon sufficiently powerful arguments in his favour, that is a problem of intellect and the rightness of his position - his age is irrelevant.

I had some conversations (if you could call them that...) with "Justin the Preacher". THAT was unequal combat, a battle of wits with a man who was clearly completely unarmed. Once again, his age was irrelevant - he was about twenty years older than me, but that didn't matter at all. His lack of anything persuasive or rational to say was his downfall, and age had precisely nothing to do with it. I don't think it's relevant here either.

"There are few things in life more stubborn than a teenager, and realistically it is going to be down to the adult to find a way out in these circumstances."

Again - if I were Tango I would be angry at the patronising implication that he is unable to conduct himself properly. And since I'm me, I'm vaguely annoyed at the implication that one must tolerate unacceptable behaviour from certain users of this site, simply on the basis of their age. But then, the double standards by which this site is run become clearer by the day.

"For what it is worth, I would suspect that the lesson has been partially learnt in this case, and that the rest of the lesson is unlearnable from any methods available on an Internet site. I also second Mikey's point about the value of a forced apology. Worthless, in my opinion."

Call me a senseless optimist, but I stil think there is hope for Tango. He need not do a spook - by which I mean retrospectively and falsely claim to have apologised, having done no such thing, while simultaneously denying he had ever done anything wrong. He can still, I think, sort this out, with a single post, if the words are right. I live in hope.

H.

"We're exchanging short text messages..."

H: Count your lines. That was not a short text message.

spelugx

"I would question whether Tango *should* be treated as a child."

I don't think Tango was needing to be treated as a child. He made one unguarded remark in defence of Spook and in response to a lot of insults which were mostly one-sided at the time. I think it wasn't an accurate choice of word but most people would have understood the mistake in the circumstances given that there was some justification. Unfortunately because of the somewhat bizarre moderation policy, no-one can go back and check the details fully now.

Tango has also made a couple of attempts at reconciliation which HVL seems to have ignored, most recently F94020?thread=275636&post=3491144#p3491144 , and, as you pointed out Kerr Avon, based on the rest of his actions on site I don't see why those shouldn't be considered to be genuine offers from Tango.