h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Having re-read the 2 pages so far, there is one message that over-rides pretty much everything said:

What your son gets out of school will be directly correlated to what he (and, by extension, you) put in.

Positive, hard-working, intelligent children come out of even the worst Special Measures schools every year. Over-pushy parents with apathetic children waste fortunes at private schools, whose staff are virtually obliged to cheat their charges through exams in order to maintain their all-important League Table standings. I've seen grammar school A-Level lessons in which students exhibited worse behaviour than my bottom set year 8s. There is an endless list of vague judgements about schools which just are not a reflection of day-to-day and hour-to-hour proceedings.

It might seem patronising, but the formula for success in _any_ school is encourage the child to be an enthusiastic learner and for you both to form positive relationships with staff and other pupils.

Is it worth putting yourself on a waiting list at the local school regardless? There are two very sought after schools here, but people are confident about getting in through that method even if they are something like 50th on the list. Of course, lots of movement and private options round here, so local circs might be different. I suppose it also depends on how late you could pull him out of the private option. The wait can sometimes take people up to practically the start date.

I think it's probably easier to network homeschooled kids these days because of the internet and such, although again it's one of those things that's easier depending on where you live. I think you'd be fab, but I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to do it.

Wot Sol said about you home-schooling.

because what a horrible day.

Baby boom or no baby boom, if the home-school distances are that small then the potential for mismeasurement is greater. It does happen, even with super-spicky software. When the pre-hearing paperwork comes through for your appeal, let me know what's in it, because I look at this sort of stuff all the time. And woe betide the local authority if it's made a mistake . Something to check is whether the distance is straight line or by walking route, and either way whether it goes door to door, gate to gate, or addresspoint to addresspoint (all of which can make a difference). Also, siblings from outside the catchment *may* have priority over children within catchment (it depends on the admissions criteria for the school) - this is often what deprives catchment children of places in particularly large cohorts.

It's likely, if the baby boom is that big, that other families locally have the same allocated school as you. So the allocated school might not be such an isolating option as it first appears. What MB says about parental input and support probably isn't what you want to know right now, but it's true.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the years do pass incredibly quickly and T'other's year may not be oversubscribed. If he gets a place then T'boy should jump a few places up the waiting list on the grounds of sibling priority. It's worth finding out now where T'boy is on the waiting list (the LA should have you on the waiting list for each of your preferred schools, and has to maintain that waiting list until Christmas). If he is in the first three the chances are good that he will actually get a place so don't lose heart.

But I do always feel the most sympathy for parents who don't get a place in the reception class at their catchment school - it just seems so unfair

Mol

Other local kids don't have the same allocated school as us - we didn't like the third school in our village, and thought that as in we wouldn't have got in there in any year in the last decade there wasn't any point putting it as a lower priority choice than our catchment school - we put the further away one that would have made for a tricky commute which we'd have had an outside chance of getting in. Our friends on our road put the third school in the village and have been allocated that.

I've been thinking about it and I think what has happened is that our catchment school has been vastly improving and has a great head (as I said further up the thread), and the third school which has previously been very over-subscribed has a rubbish new head and no facilities for foundation year kids - their 'classroom' was a corridoor. Kids in the catchment for our catchment school would previously have applied for the other two schools and maybe got in on denominational grounds meaning there are plenty of places at our school. This year, our catchment school has been very popular so most people have put it as their first choice and as a result we have been pushed out - we don't get in to the church school as we are not religious, and didn't put the third school as it was horrible (not as horrible as the one we have been allocated though, in hindsight I should have just stuck it on there but there didn't seem any point - even the woman I spoke to at the council office said she didn't understand why people put out-of-catchment schools on their list *after* their catchment school). It will be interesting to hear if our first choice school has taken kids from the next town, on denominational grounds, over people in the village. Probably.

Our plan of action is to put him on the waiting list for the two schools we wanted - there is apparently information about this in the appeals pack, appeal anyway (which we expect to do nothing useful) and have the private school as where he will go if we don't get either of our village schools.

This is killing me because having ummed and ahhed over the local vs private thing and decided that local was far preferable, I can hear my own arguments against him going to private school echoing in my head. And I really am worried about it being all-boys.

And now got an added complication - the really fabulous co-ed private school which we put his name down for even though they had no spaces and thought it unlikely he would get in for reception have called and said there is a place if we want one. The concern is that it is 23% dearer than the all-boys one. It is also a religious school, which is a bit of a downside to me. But it does have fabulous facilities.

Is it worth an extra 23% to be educated with girls?

Hmm. Well you only get one go at this, so you want to get it right. My 2 daughters flipped between state and private education all the time. Also between mixed and single sex. Nothing is fixed in stone. Make the best decision you can at the time but be prepared for plans to change. Kids bounce.

Sunshine (now 24, has a BSc 2:1 and a mortgage on her own on a 2 bed semi-detatched house) She did 4 terms in a state infants, then private mixed infants and juniors. At 11 she went into a single-sex state grammar, then at 13 into a mixed private boarding school. At 15 back into a different single-sex state grammar, got 5 A levels then uni at 18.

Moonlight (now 21 and almost completed her BA, might be 2:1, possibly a 1st). Started in private mixed infants then juniors, was accelerated a year so skipped Year 4. Took 11+ at 9, and scored 598/600. 2 years in a mixed private boarding school then transferred to a single-sex state grammar. Began A levels at 14, got 5, too a gap year then uni at 18.

I really dread to think how much I've spend in school and uni fees over the years but I don't regret a single penny. And of course I home schooled too, for example both of them were able to read by their 3rd birthday, long before starting school.

If you decide to got the home school route, there are lots of options for mixing with other children and for you to get a break. For example, I'm occasionally asked to teach Saturday morning enrichment classes for kids of 4 and over, and lots of them are home schooled.

OK just checked the admissions criteria for your area. The home-school distance is measured addresspoint to addresspoint, straight line (which is the least likely method to result in mismeasurement).

For community schools, out of catchment siblings do not have priority over in-catchment children. But you're right, out of catchment sibs and children of worshippers do have priority for the C of E school. I can't find the supplementary form on either the council website or the school website so I can't check it - this is relevant because if it amounts to a panel of governors assessing how Christian people are, the potential for being unfair is significant. This matters because admissions criteria should have a 'desert island' factor - that is, anybody armed with a copy of the admissions criteria and all the application forms should end up putting all the applications in the same order. So the supplementary form should ask for consistent, precise, and quantifiable evidence of church commitment. How the school selected the denominational applicants is information that should be in its case for the appeal. As I said, let me know.

Might be worth applying for a late place (and then going on the waiting list) for the third catchment school. I don't know what the turnover of pupils is in your area, but it's likely somebody will drop out between now and September.

Nothing useful to say about private education, except that generally boys and girls don't mix a great deal by choice anyway in the first few years of primary school. And there's 13 years of education ahead for T'boy. As coelacanth has shown, you're not committed to a definite route from the outset.

Mol

Thanks Mol, this is going to come down to the addresspoint. I spoke to admissions and they said there were 4 in-catchment kids who didn't get a place, and ranked on address point we are 4th. However, I know one of those is number 36 and given that every point of their plot is further awy from the school than every point on ours, I don't see how they can be higher up than us. I need to know where they get these address points from urgently and check how they are measured.

I know that of us 4 kids (I am assuming they are only counting kids who didn't get a higher preference school rather then ones in-catchment who got into a higher-preference church school on denominational grounds) one will probably stay with his designated school (CD), one will definitely go on the waiting list for CR, and we will go on the waiting list for CR. I'm not sure who the other kid is, so don't know about them. So potentially there will be one, two or three kids ahead of us. I know for sure that one person offered a place at CR is going to decline, so we are going to be really close to getting in. But I'll be livid if the kid at 36 gets in ahead of us when they are further away!

Apparently they do the waiting lists first, then the appeals.

Have decided that the mixed private school is not for us - is very snooty, is religious, and don't think we'd fit in. So, all-boy private school or wait to see if we get a place at the local catchment school.

I meant to say, how can I find out the addresspoints?

Zoomed in close to the council maps and they are right, from where they measure 36 is closer than us.

I don't know if this is relevant or helpful in any way:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8466280/Limit-believers-to-10pc-of-pupils-in-CoE-schools-urges-bishop.html

Not for this year, sadly.

Mol

I am actually wondering if I cn appeal for my catchment school on religious grounds - the other two in the villge are church schools, as is the one we were offered. Our catchment school is our nearest secular school by a very long way. Wonder if anyone has challenged on the grounds of not wanting religious dogma in their child's education before?

Yes. Get in touch with your local Skeptics (who may be too young, white and male to care) and the British Humanist website and organisation who certainly do care, they have an anti-Faith School campaign. Dawkins' site may have something too.

Yes I'd try that Kelly, I had my son withdrawn from all religious assemblies, and everything related in his normal school, that is your right. In a church school that would be very difficult. But if you do win on those grounds you'd have to pull him out like I did Teenacher. Which means also either missing out on nativity plays or at the very least, he'll be a sheep ever christmas.

Although if you had any church school on your list at all that might not work.

Ummm ...

I'm not sure how to put this tactfully so I'll try to be matter of fact. I think your catchment school has an admissions number of 30, which means that your appeal for a place will be an infant class size appeal. This is not the same as an appeal for a place in key stage 2 or above, because the law does not allow an infant class size to go above 30 (there are of course some technical exceptions on this but fundamentally 30 is the limit). There are *only two grounds* on which an infant class size appeal can be upheld:

(1) there was an error in the admissions process
(2) the decision to refuse a place was perverse.

Lots of parents making an ICS appeal go for (2), and they come up with all sorts of reasons why they think the decision to refuse a place was perverse. But perverse has a much stronger meaning in legal terms than in ordinary language. If a suitable place is available within a reasonable distance (ie a half-hour drive) then the decision won't have been perverse.

'Suitable' in this context is almost interchangeable with 'any'. If you clearly stated at the time of application that a secular or church education was important, and evidenced this, then that *might* make a difference. But I think what I'm trying to say is, don't pin your hopes on this.

In my job, I don't generally see the outcome of successful appeals (parents who win an appeal aren't going to complain about it). I've recently drafted a factsheet about infant class size appeals (not generally available yet) and really struggled to come up with examples of what an appeal panel might consider to be a perverse refusal. The best I could do would be if a family had been moved under a witness protection scheme - and even under those circumstances, there would probably be suitable alternative school places available.

I have dealt with some awful, awful situations where families were refused a place at their catchment school. But the law is almost absolute on the issue of infant class size and this means that no matter how strong the parents' case is, another child cannot be squeezed in. An infant class size appeal really only exists to pick up errors in the admissions process (mismeasurement of home-school distance, failure to consider sibling places).

So - appeal, because there may have been a mistake. Make sure you are on the waiting list of every other school you would consider. Don't give up. But don't get too hopeful.



Mol

We couldn't put that it was our choice on religious grounds because ticking that box in the application process meant you had to submit a church form signed by your vicar - there wasn't a seculr version! Had I known we'd be in this position I might have filled it in anyway and sent it to Prof Dawkins - he might well have signed it for us!

I am actually quite hopeful of getting into our catchment school via the waiting list - only 4 in-catchment kids didn't get places, all on my road so I know them all; Mo, Me, C, and t'boy. We are furthest away. I know of 2 kids who did get a place who aren't going to take it up, and Mo is going to stick with their allocated school so we would only need one more kid to not take their place and we will be in....provided nobody nearer than us goes on the first round waiting list who lives nearer than us. Can't imagine a reason why they would unless they put 3 out-of-village very distant and popular schools on their form first time around.

So quite optimistic on that score, and have gone on the waiting list for the other two schools in the village too. I suspect there may be parents in the village considering the private option having got their catchment school as 2nd or 3rd choice so there is a good chance at least one of them won't take their offered place.

Still, have paid the deposit on the private all-boy one as back up - wouldn't consider a school out of the village as we'd decided local beats private, but if we can't have local then private beats all the others.

I can't imagine why anybody nearer would go onto the waiting list at this stage either, so I'd say you have a good chance of having a place come September.

Ooh, the equivalent of a church form for those preferring a secular education ... interesting ... that's something that would be worth a campaign, although I still don't think it will help at appeal, unfortunately.

Mol