h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Not really. I know quite a few young earth creationists in academia, and many others who dispute the age of the earth and the lie of evolution"

quite a few is one thing, but the majority don't. You yourself claim 1 in 5 are YEC. The vast majority therefore are not. The establishment supports evolution - that's why you're mad, remember? So why do accept honors from the establishment of Satan?

"If your God created the world, then he also put that evidence around you in place."

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So the devil created the world, and maintains its existence? And that bit in the bible where it says Goddidit is a lie?

Noggin

"Sorry you are wrong. I have 10 GCSE's, 4 A-Levels and am on my way to a first class honours degree."

You can Albert Einstein and still be a prat? It the way you act, not your intelligence...

Anyway, on your way to a first, better pull your finger out and raise that 2:1

"I don't care if you feel that way. God tells us precisely how He created man and I believe Him"

MAy I suggest you haven't thought about it properly and why Genesis says what it says and have missed the point...

"Not really. I know quite a few young earth creationists in academia, and many others who dispute the age of the earth and the lie of evolution."

I know many in the highlest level of academia, I know none who are YEC...

You CU friends don't count...

"Allegedly. You have not one iota of proof to corroborate this statement."

We have the fossil record of human species development

"Theories, theories, theories... but not a single fact."

Sam Sam Sam, I thought we had gone over this enough times that you'd actually learnt what a theory is...

YOU CAN'T HAVE THEORIES WITHOUT FACTS

THEORIES ARE EXPLNANATION OF FACTS

IF YOU HAVE THEORIES, BY DEFINITION, YOU HAVE FACTS!!!

Got it now?

"Evolution is a wicked lie of the devil, and we Christians will not tolerate it."

Well it's funn y then that

a) Evolution is a fact and has been observed, documented and thousands of papers published to this effect

b) a limitied form of evolution that is incredibly rapid is VITAL for YECism to be correct, ie the enormously huge changes required to get modern species from original kinds

The the Devil is helping God out then?

Theories are fallible though - they are, by definition, humans placing their own interpretations on facts. Facts are quite different. One cannot say evolution is a fact, since you cannot show it to me in the way you can show me 2 + 2 = 4.

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Yet you insist that Creationism is a fact, solely based on having read it in a book that you have decided is Holy. Where is the proof in that? Sounds like a double standard to me.


az

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First off, I can't show you that 2+2=4. I can teach you the meaning of the *symbols*, but 2+2=4 is not an empirical fact, it's a definition.

Evolution is not a "fact" either. As already explained to you a theory explains what we observe by integrating facts into a coherent system. The theory of evolution is a very successful theory. It integrates lots of facts, from many scientific disciplines, from maths and physics to geology, biology, psychology and many others. It suggests new avenues of research, and is still integrating more facts. If you wish to overthrow evolution as a theory, you will need a new theory that not only explains any anomalies in the facts as explained by evolution, but also continues to explain all the observations now explained by the theory of evolution.

You claim that the Bible is the infallible word of God, that every word in it is true. What sort of a statement is this? Is it an empirical statement that every proposition or statement in the bible has been checked against observation? (even if it were the case that this could be done and it turned out that the Bible was always right, I don't think it could be claimed that this had *already* been done in every specific.)

Or are we talking about some sort of theory? Something that "explains" all the observed facts in a coherent way, and makes testable predictions about new facts, and shows why certain things are *not* possible (tricky if there's an omnipotent God).

Or are we, as I have suggested, talking about a definition. That the Bible is being *defined* as infallible?

I know that theories of knowledge are tricky beasts, and that one can find problems in any of them, but since you bandy around the claim that you know stuff in contexts that suggest that *your* theory of knowledge bears not even "a family resemblance" to other people's, a stab at giving an account of it might be useful. It might even be useful *to you* to try and make it explicit in this way. What have you got to lose?

Noggin

"Theories are fallible though"

True, that's why we deliberately try and disprove them to test them

"they are, by definition, humans placing their own interpretations on facts."

But bvy testing them, their validity or lack thereof will become apparent and no amount on "interpretation" is going to make a disporved theory anyless wrong.

If a theory makes predictions that are not contradicted by experiment or observation and makes predictions that are verified and turn out correct when we look, as is the case with the theory of evolution and all the other theories that contradict YECism, then we can be sure that we are on the right track

Interpretation is hence removed from the equation

If you knew some science, you'd realise that. Why don't they teach arts student the basic of scientific reasoning, as we can all see from Sam, they'd surely benefit!

"Facts are quite different."

But you do not know what the facts are and so are not in a position to judge any interpretation. In reality Sam, thjere is no evolution vs creation debate, the debate ended two centuries ago, it is only people like you who cling on out of an irrational emotional need for it to be true that keeps your lost cause going.

The facts paint a picture that is very black and white, it simply is not possible thjat YECism could be in any way even slightly true.

"One cannot say evolution is a fact, since you cannot show it to me in the way you can show me 2 + 2 = 4."

Yes I can and have since this is the case. You've been told where to look to find documented cases of evolution in action.

Scared of what you'll find?

Anyway, if evolution is not correct and YECism is true, you've got one hell of a challenge on your hands because until you can explain the red shift of galaxies, the cosmic microwave background, all the other big bang evidence, until you can explain why rcok should give aseemingly chronological dependence on strata and why the fossil record is as perfectly ordered as it is, and that is the key,m the ordering...

...then YECism is a dead duck. Not one creationist has ever been able to explain any of these and they are obligated to to be taken seriously...

Noggin,

I know the Bible is true, because God has revealed that to me through His Holy Spirit. It is not a testable hypothesis, because the Bible is only intended for God's children in the first place (there is an interesting discussion on this at the moment on the Christian topic board). You cannot rationalise the Word of God through science.

Paul,

I think we are just going around in circles here. I believe in creation because that is the way God said it happened. It's a simple as that.

"I think we are just going around in circles here"

Does that ever change, you refuse to leave square 1

"I believe in creation because that is the way God said it happened. It's a simple as that."

So you deny reality in favour of delusion.

You believe creationism becuase you BELIEVE, not know, that God said that was the way it happened...

Bury you head in the sand and run scared to death from the truth as much as you like. You are wrong and the universe is not 6000 years old, this is a cast iron fact that is fundamentally indisputable.

If the bible contradicted the theories of gravity would you walk off the top of a building?

"You cannot rationalise the Word of God through science"

You can proive it wrong with science though. If it doesn't sqaure with observation, it's wrong, end of debate.

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Sounds very simple indeed. You believe something because of the way you have chosen to intrepret the Bible.

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So instead you rationalise it through, um, a personal choice you once made to take the Bible as fact?


az

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So what form does this revelation take? Obviously the revelation is not in the Bible itself, as such, or you wouldn't need to have it revealed by another source.

And how do you know that what is revealed to you by means of this revelation is true, and tht the revealer is indeed the Holy Spirit and not the impostor who has obviously posed as such to people of other faiths from time to time?

Is it true by definition or are there facts or testable predictions that you can point to. If neither of these what does the word "know" mean?

Noggin

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Would you mind being more specific here?

Did "His Holy Spirit" appear to you in a dream, set light to your shrubbery or was it a feeling deep within yourself that it just felt right?

Sam, can you enlighten me - can you prove to me that 2 + 2 = 4?

And Sam, can you clarify your definition of a Christian for me?

Chris·tian Audio pronunciation of "christian" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.


Taken from dictionary.com

So, by my understanding of the work Christian, it means a believer or follower of Christ and his teachings.

Now, perhaps I misunderstood my 15 years of Catholic Convent education, but I was under the impression that Catholics followed the teachings of Christ and are therefore Christians as defined above.

So where did this "Hitler was not a Christian. I think he was a Catholic" come from?

"You refuse to believe the evidence around you, preferring a stupid book."

I believe God before I believe men.That's precisely the point. You have this beautiful planet made by God and you have a collection of old documents written by men and you chose to believe the stupid documents made by men.

"If your God created the world, then he also put that evidence around you in place."

No. The devil is reponsible for this.So now you think the Devil created the World, interesting.

"The Bible says that God will do all the judging. You just have to worry about your own soul."

You are quite wrong. The Bible tells followers of Christ to JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT.Where does the Bible say it is for man to do the judging? What about all the stuff to do with not casting the first stone and removing planks from your eye? How do you interpret that?

>The very fact he contradicted himself shows he was not a Christian.

This from a person who is disrespectful about his grandfather and who lies when he says that he doesn't lie. You are not a christian by your own comment by your contradictions.

The thing is if your bible says that 2+2=3 you would believe it.

And to remind you about on of my questions to you.

Do you believe that rabbits chew the cud like the bible says?

Yes or no. Have the courage of your religion and reply. If not do not anyone to ever take you seriously, though with your weird definations about liying, I don't think anyone ever did.