h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sorry Dancer I have to take take issue with


"Israel is doing the least possible to try and maintain security"


OK the situation may be terrible, and OK we may be getting bias reports here but some facts-

Israel is in contravention of UN resolutions on various territories it possesses - if this was Iraq the "west" would be sending in the troups (if oil was there)

Using helicopter gunships to take out suspects (remember SUSSPECTS, whatever happened to pressumed inocence) is not the least you can do - if the UK government sent the Air Force to bomb the repulic of Ireland after every bombing I think we would hear cut off from the world so fast you wouldn't believe it.

Of course there are many injustices from the internal palestinian sector, I totally accept that but the disaportionate responces to every extemist attack will only mean more, not less extemists.

Kadu

The Guide has already proven that it *IS* possible to deal with the Arab-Israeli conflicts in a sensible and balanced manner, just have a look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A507061 , dealing with the Temple Mount. It was featured on the Front Page, and it is one of the masterpieces of the Guide.

Of course, the Temple Mount is just one of the focal points of the conflict, and it will be a hell of a job to write any Entry about that conflict. But just dumping an Entry into the SinBin because it's not yet up to the required balance is not the solution.

I'd still say Writing Workshop, or maybe even h2g2 University ...?

Jeremy

I never saw anyone's homepage entered as a prospective Guide entry before.
If this entry is going to be worked on, surely it requires the permission of the original author, Researcher #158058. As I understand it, using someone else's work without their permission is plagiarism?
Lady Elly, I think the comment about the tape self-destructing was in extreme bad taste as well.
My heart goes out to you all.
This has been very painful reading for me, and my thoughts and prayers are with you.

~AGB~ praying for Peace.

Thanx GB! As Mike constantly keeps saying- you are the best!
Jeremy- both me and Itai went through military service in frontline units, we know how things work from within. Noone's bombing the poor little Palestinians after every attack, believe me, and I hate to even start thinking about the massacker from afew months ago, which still brings tears to my eyes.
Infact- we grew so used to the state of things, we don't get eccited anymore. The last week was full of such terrible events, and I'm not even slightly shocked.
I don't think this entry would be supported by Itai or other Israelies, surely not by me, and therefore, there's noone's opinion you can put into it. Leave us and this entry be, for God's sake, and go write about something else. This is too painful, too touchy. Why do we have to be reminded of it EVERYWHERE, even here?!

Yael

I mostly agree with Lucinda's comments - this article needs work, and input from both sides, to make it balanced; but it could be important.

In the interests of that goal: can we please keep this thread for commenting on the style, structure and *factual* inaccuracies (if any) of this article. If you sympathise with one side in a war situation, please don't succumb to the temptation to block your ears to the voice of the other side - surely talking is better than bombing?

Please don't respond to the fact that here is an article from a Palestinian viewpoint to air your views in general on what the Palestinian army/militia/terrorists (pick your term) are guilty of - especially if that means portraying them as the Devil incarnate. Lots of mistakes are being made in the Middle East, and have been since long before 1948 - most of these people, on both sides, are just trying to survive and get the best of what's on offer for their own people. Some of them use reprehensible and even evil methods. That's human nature, sadly.

Wouldn't it be great if two researchers, one from each culture, could get together and agree on balanced and non-inflammatory content for this article? At least then we would have built a bridge, and both sides might have learnt a little more how to see the conflict from the other's point of view.

As they say - if you disagree with someone, first walk a mile in their shoes. Then at least if you still disagree with them, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have their shoes.

GVI

Itai, Yael,

please understand that I do not want to take sides for anyone who has to participate in that conflict. The only side I'd like to take is the side of those who want to end it.

All I tried was to be aware of what the PR, the Writing Workshop and the SinBin are meant to be. The Near East conflict is one of the focal points of present history. IMHO it *has* to be dealt with in the Guide. I do realize that this will be one of the most difficult topics that the Guide has ever had to cover. The Entry that started this thread is highly biased, and I'd never pick it as a possible addition to the Guide as it stands now.

One possible way out of this dilemma would be the classic academical 'thesis' - 'antithesis' - 'synthesis' method: One researcher states a thesis *and has to prove it*;
another researcher states an opposite thesis *and has to prove it*
together they find a synthesis that tends to be far more balanced that the first ones. I know this is difficult, almost impossible with this highly emotional, political, social, ethnical and religious topic.

A conflict will not end before both sides stop wanting to win it.

Jeremy
joining AGB in her prayers for peace
to the GOD we all believe in

I'll just remind everyone here that we are in Peer Review at the moment. The topic is comments and criticism of the entry. Discussion of the whole dang conflict is off topic - please take it to Miscellaneous Chat or wait till this entry gets moved elsewhere.

GB - there have been a couple of people who've got confused about the guide and entered their home space as a guide entry. It's not a good idea, because it mucks up the process, and we try and persuade people to fix that before recc'ing the entry...

By posting their entry on h2g2, the author has automatically given permission for their work to be used as part of another h2g2 entry, provided they are referenced as a researcher. If the researcher is still active, their permission should be obtained, but that's just for politeness sake.

I'm no doubt in very bad taste, but I can justify myself by pointing out that it's in a lot better taste than many of the jokes made by soldiers serving in World War Two. Though perhaps not as funny...

WW2, Lucinda?!
This is an emotional subject, and therefore there's room for emotional comments.
Don't get me wrong, Jeremy- I'm sure Itai would agree with me that nobody wants this situation to go on, not most of the Israelies, nor most of the Palestinians.
One of the things the army does in the occupied territories is to protect the Palestinians from some religious settlers like Baruch Goldstein, so nothing's one-sided.
I keep promising myself to stay out of this debate, but your replies makes me wanna scream sometimes.
And seeing how the CNN and BBC report about what's going on here, I'm not surprized by your weird optimism, or by the fact that you see the Israelies as the 'Bad Guys'.
Hopefully I'm done here.
Yael

WW2, Lucinda?!
This is an emotional subject, and therefore there's room for emotional comments.
Don't get me wrong, Jeremy- I'm sure Itai would agree with me that nobody wants this situation to go on, not most of the Israelies, nor most of the Palestinians.
One of the things the army does in the occupied territories is to protect the Palestinians from some religious settlers like Baruch Goldstein, so nothing's one-sided.
I keep promising myself to stay out of this debate, but your replies makes me wanna scream sometimes.
And seeing how the CNN and BBC report about what's going on here, I'm not surprized by your weird optimism, or by the fact that you see the Israelies as the 'Bad Guys'.
Hopefully I'm done here.
Yael

Lucinda, is there a way of moving this whole conversation over to Misc so it can be continued in a more appropriate place?

There is, but I'd prefer not to do it, since this thread does contain appropriate criticism for this entry. Moving threads to Misc Chat is something of a last resort, which we've never had to do up till now. However, if someone were to create a thread in Misc Chat and give its URL there, that would possibly be a useful thing to do.

I have one more suggestion and that is that if we do not hear a response from the author of this article in a reasonable amount of time, that the article be moved to the Writer's Workshop if someone can be found who is willing to take over responsibility for editing and modifiying its content. This follows since there is no point in proposing changes if there is no one available to make those changes.

This debate is inevitable since this is an emotional topic, but there is no chance of having an improved article if there is no author available to improve it.

The other choice of a University project is also feasable it there is a sponsor for it.

Failing either, it seems to me that the article discussion must go to the Sin Bin. Whatever the other options are, Peer Review seems to feel that this article is not ready for editing.

Barton

This is the official line:

> "The writing workshop is for entries that need more work. This entry needs more work and there we can find someone who may be willing to take on the job of writing a piece that addresses both viewpoints, or to write two entries that address both sides of the issue. Okay so it might not lead to an entry, but then again it might."

It'll get moved some time soon. Thanks to everyone who commented.

Ladies and Gentleman, we are now landed in the writing workshop. This thread is now subject to the normal rules of h2g2 threads, and topic drift is perfectly acceptable. While you're here, why not check out many of the other attractions here in the workshop - their authors would no doubt all love to have your feedback. Remember, if you'd like to see changes to an entry here, but the author isn't responsing - just take a copy of the entry, and make the changes yourself! {give credit where it is due, of course}.

Have Fun!

Thanks Lucinda,

Fun might not be the right word to use!

How about, let the debate begin!

How's that?

Z.

I don't know if you heard of the great disaster in Israel. There was a really huge escalation in terror against Israel, and I don't think I'll be in the mood to post here soon. I hope I'll be ready to contribute soon.

*Dancer prays for all victims of terror in the world*


Dancer

*sends sympathy to victims, and their families and friends, of violence and terror every where in the world*

Z.

Can I just mention, on the Partition plan, and the existence of Jews in Palestine previous to the creation of the new satae of Israel:

There were jews in the country, living alongside the muslim and christian populations. There were frictions between the three religious groups, but in most places the people coexisted peacefully. Many of the first postwar jewish settlers were welcomed to the land.

As a matter of historical record, Britain, who had a temporary mandate to rule palestine until it could be made self-governing, promised the land both to its arab residents, and to the jews as a basis for them to regain security after the holocaust. Naturally it couldn't fulfil both promises, and after some recent jewish settlers started getting violent (resulting in violence from the arab residents) the British pulled out, not wanting to get involved in the fighting it had helped to initiate.

This gave the new jewish influx (and most of the previous jewish inhabitants had sided with them by this time) a chance to launch a full scale invasion based on superior weaponry and deliberate intimidation campaigns (such as targetted massacres).

The jewish invaders agreed to a Partition plan drawn up by third parties. They agreed to it because they knew that the Palestinians would not.
And why would the Palestinians not agree to it? Well imagine if Britain was invaded by France, and the French then magnaminously agreed to split the country down the middle - half to the British, half to the French. Can you imagine the British reaction to such a plan? Exactly.

It is interesting that the PLO is labelled as a terrorist organisation rather than as a resistance movement (and remember that the invasion is ongoing - settlements still being built). Everyone understands when resistance movements fight invaders, yet no-one understands when the Palestinians do it.

(I personally disagree with the use of violence on both sides, but this is besides the point in terms of interpretation of the Palestinians actions)

A note on Israeli historical revisionism: I visited a site (I was in the West Bank, and in Israel itself, for five weeks) where a village had once been (Emmaus, I believe it was, for those of you who remember your Bible). Next to an ancient Muslim tomb of a holy man was a sign in english and hebrew explaining that the surrounding village had been wiped out by plague a few centuries ago.
It was destroyed utterly by Israelis, who killed and drove out its unarmed civilians inhabitants, in 1967. I was standing there with some of the survivors.
The sign had bullet-marks on it, where some frustrated Palestinian had vented their anger. And I could understand that.

J

Well, no resistance group in the world blows up 16 year old kids! At a party.

Yesterday: 17 killed! most of them under the age of 17, and more than a few dosens injured, a lot of them ceverely.
2 Days Ago: One man shot (Civilian)
3 Days Ago: One man missing (Civilian, A taxi Driver, unknown if related to palestinians, but in this country, most missing persons are).
There are more than 3 examples a week of terrorist acts, wi an absolute majority of civilian targets. UNDESCRIMINATE cevilian targets!

And you post is verry inaccurate.

I am tired of trying to stand against the palestinian well organized propoganda, and I don't blame you for getting the Impressions you have.

May god (or jesus or alla, budha, whoever you want) be with all of you.

Peace,

Itai Basel (Dancer)