h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh -- 'Bar Mikvah'

A mikvah is a place of running water used for ritual cleansing, by men and women.

A bar mitsvah translates as the son's commandment and is the cermony and service where a boy of 13 graduates to manhood by conducting or particiating in a religius service.

The image I get from a 'bar mikvah' is a bunch of people gathered in a stream while a son gets wet or something.

(Bye the way, a bat mitsvah would be for the daughter)

Well back to our regluarly scheduled debate.

Barton

Don't laugh

"Bar mikveh" is the name of the conversion ritual (because of the herod story in the article), and yes it is done in a sort of a bathing tub for the yes - ritual cleansing.

I did not mit BAR MITZVAH.

Shalom,

HELL

Strait to the point, as ever, Barton!

Elly

"Conversion"?
Are you a converted Jew, Hell?

Elly

No. And as far as I know it wouldn't make a difference.

Either someone is 100% jewish or not. I think.

I'm 20% Jew
Maybe I got it wrong....
Back to the conversation!

conversation is probably better than conversion.

Bye,

HELL

I think this entry shouldn't be in the guide, there's no way to make it unbiased.

> "I think this entry shouldn't be in the guide, there's no way to make it unbiased."

Never say never. Try this structure out for size:

> _Brief_Overview_ > this includes stuff which is undisputed by both sides. Like, where the heck Israel is on the map.

> _The_Palestinian_Viewpoint_ > this details how most palestinians see history and current events

> _The_Israeli_Viewpoint_ > this details the other side of the coin.

If there are more viewpoints (hardline, softline, baseline, fineline, B-spline) then include them too. At the bare minimum some person or people ought to be able to create something in that format, and it'll be acceptable.

Ideally, I'd expect more. Like a balanced overview that includes quotes from h2g2 researchers on both sides, from historical documents, from newspapers and political leaders, and puts them together in a coherent and balanced viewpoint that both sides can agree with. I'd hope that such an entry would make peace and understanding between the various factions just that teensy tiny bit closer. If nothing else, it's surely worth a try?

I'm certainly not saying that the article is perfect; it certainly needs a lot of work, as well as a degree of objectivity and neutrality. The thing I object to is that it seems as though a few people resent the concept of having an article on Palestinians per se. I am disgusted at the actions of Palestian Islamic terrorist groups that are harming innocent people. Equally I am disgusted at the Israeli government for using excessive force and aggression. At any rate, this is the writer's personal view and they have every right to leave it in the guide, even though as it is it should not be in the edited guide.

It pains me to hear it every time:
"Israeli goverment using excessive force"

Every other goverment in the world would have killed thousands of them. Israel is doing the least possible to try and maintain security!

You hear the news, but the news are by companies that have arab investors. The media is Biased.

Everywhere in history that such conflicts rose, with this amount of terrorism, and also with much less, thousands of people were killed by the goverment.

Israel kills verry few arabs. most arabs who die in the conflict die because they perform suicide terrorist actions, exploding a bomb on their body and killing civilians.
Others are ones who attack soldiers in order to kill them.

THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELTIES!
NO EXECUTIONS!

Britain itself was much crueler in every single conflict it EVER had!!!!
There are great many countries that killed thousands in order to create or maintain peace.
Israel isn't doing it! Israel is attacking no one!

Israel wants peace, we gave away (To Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian authorities) over 50% of what was Israel in return for peace and peace attempts.

I know this is off subject but the subject is verry painful. I had friends that are gone because of all this. It always brings me to overload.

I am well aware that the British were very brutal - my own family are from an ex-colonial state and suffered because of it. But there's no point justifying. No, the Israelis aren't totally to blame, but neither are the Palestians. I know there's no point in aggravating people on these issues as they do upset people, but to be perfectly honest I think that the present far-right attitudes of the Israeli government under Ariel Sharon are deeply misguided. I read several damning extracts from the Israeli press itself as to this recently.
"Others are ones who attack soldiers in order to kill them" - this is certainly deeply biased, given that if I rightly recall four Palestinian policemen were shot dead by the Israeli army recently, as well as the army taking tanks into refugee camps. I have also been appalled by the numerous suicide bombings at Israeli bus shelters by Palestinian terrorists recently. I condemn these selfish individuals, but I also condemn the manner in which the Israeli government takes these incidents as justification to get out the fighter jets.

seems pretty slanted, I'd have to recommend a university project with writers for both sides as well...

Even when Israel take out the fighter jets, Israel makes sure no one is killed. I gives warnings!

When Jews fought the british (for independance) who had a mandate from the UN to rule Israel, We gave warning before bombing buildings to make sure people aren't hurt.
It's the policy of Israel since before it was created.

I'm left wing, I didn't vote for Aric Sharon, but the right wing people are Sharon's main criticism for not doing enough. And I thing he isn't doing enough also.

Under any other goverment, the Arabs would have suffered so much!
No single country in the world would allow this kind of things to happen in it. Not America, not Britain, and sure as hell not any Arab country.

Do you konw that the Palestinian goverment killed more arabs since it was created than Israel did (from the same point in time)?

Israel is being Patient. and bringing Tanks in is just a display of power to try and maintain peace! We are showing how big our muscles and fists are because we are not allowed (Ethically) to use them.

Israel is a neuclear power with an advanced army, if we decide to use excessive force, The Palestinians have no chance of surviving. It's just that they know we won't because we are not that kind of goverment. MOST ARAB GOVERMENT ARE OF THAT KIND AND HAVE ACTUALLY KILLED MILLIONS OF ARABS IN THEIR HISTORY!!!

Please - this is a peer review forum. I shouldn't have become embroiled as far as I have, but certainly if such anti-Islamic stereotyping as "MOST ARAB GOVERMENT ARE OF THAT KIND AND HAVE ACTUALLY
KILLED MILLIONS OF ARABS IN THEIR HISTORY!!!" (sic) is going to be thrown about, I think this should be taken elsewhere.

It is factual truthes. it is also true about British goverment, by the way.

I'm sorry for all this eruptions, but the subject is verry sensitive, we are being blown here and killed everyday by suicide bombers, and are unable to respond a lot.
This subject is too sensitive IMHO.

And in no way this should be a guide entry (Also IMHO).

Sorry, Emily, Itai is right. Just take Iran and Iraq as an example. I'm left winged too, and I agree with all the things he wrote, deeply from the bottom of his heart.
I won't argue anymore, I really won't be bothered, but you'll have no one writing this entry for you- University project or Workshop. We won't do it, and I don't know how many Israeli and Palastinian researchers there sre here- but I'm pretty sure they won't, either. It's too touchy for all of us.
Let's leave it like that, out of PR, or get it to the Bin.

Elly

"Hi, Ini Sasson, and can I first thank you for searching out this entry from the Unedited guide and recommending it for Peer Review. Please keep up the good work: there are many great entries lurking around in the unedited guide, and we love to hear about them here - keep it up!

"I'd also like to complement Researcher 158058: for a first effort of an entry, this is fairly good. It's nicely structured, and it really gets across your sense of outrage at the situation. A fine entry for the Unedited Guide - but the Edited Guide works to different guidelines, so read on.

"Sadly, I have to inform you both that as the entry stands it is definately unready for the Edited Guide, and it will be moved from here to the writing workshop. The workshop is designed for entries which are not ready for the Edited Guide. Anyone can comment on it there, make suggestions, and hopefully work together and collaborate towards the finished article.

"Actually, I lie somewhat - it may be moved to the sin bin instead - there's debate on this issue ongoing on the Scout's mailing list. It will be moved to one or the other: so far a slight majority favor the workshop, but the final decision is of course the Italics.

"There is one major problem with this entry, as stated by many people here: bias. I'm not an expert on the situation, and for that I'm very greatful. However, an entry which causes this much disagreement cannot get into the Edited guide. Look at the http://www.h2g2.com/writing-guidelines: "try to be well balanced", it says. A little bias on uncontroversial subjects is permissable, but even the teeniest amount of bias on a subject such as this is unacceptable.

"Some ideas on how to deal with bias. The first and most important stage is to recognise that the bias exists. One way of finding this out is to wait until people disagree with something. If there is disagreement, there may well be bias. Ideally, try and collaborate with as many people as you can find, with as many differing viewpoints: the resultant argument should pinpoint any bias fairly quickly. Alternatively, historical documents may be of use, though you should remember that historical documents may be biased as well.

"One way of dealing with bias is to put the possibly biased viewpoint in blockquotes. For example, instead of saying "Arafat needs to go on a diet", say "One h2g2 researcher thinks that 'Arafat needs to go on a diet'." Better yet is to quote politicians, newspapers, and other resources.

"However, quotes are not a magic bullet. You need to make sure that you quote people on both sides of any disagreement. You also need to refrain from making any kind of judgement as to which side is more likely to be correct. In less important issues, phrases like "some people think" and so forth can be used to paper over author bias. For this topic, however, this will not be acceptable, and rather deeper surgery is required.

"Let me emphasise this: there will be no quick fix to this entry. This is not a case where a quick lick of paint and some GuideML will make it OK. I would strongly advise anyone who creates an entry on this topic to be *absolutely* certain that they've worked as hard as they possibly can to be unbiased - or even actively biased *against* their own side. Even then, it would be sensible to submit it to the Writing Workshop first, and see what reaction you get there before submitting it to Peer Review.

"Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to create one or more balanced and unbiased entries touching on the Israeli situation. Naturally, should you be caught, The Powers That Be will deny all knowledge of any involvement. This tape will self-destruct in two minutes.

That last part, about self destruct- was really not to the point on this issue, Lucinda.

As an outsider looking in, I've got a few comments and would like to see this subject properly debated and become part of the guide.

On the subject of media bias, that is what media exists to do, I'd like to think that H2G2 is above these normal rules of media and we can properly debate this very sensitive subject.

Britain has suffered from internal struggles of independence in Ireland for decades now, tho at the moment a fragile peace is in place and discussions are happening and compromises on both sides are being made. This does not seem to be the case in Israel/Palestine and a good understanding on both sides of the history of this conflict may well benefit understanding and reconcilliation.

So who's in favour of furthering reconcilliation and understanding?

Z.