A Conversation for Essex - England, UK
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho Posted Dec 11, 2005
Okay.
I imagine some of this is left over from the original entry and some of it has arisen as a result of trying to rewrite the original.
The introduction definitely needs some more tidying up. The M25 for instance isn't the boundary of Essex and Greater London. They run pretty close to each other but they aren't one and the same thing. And I do think that bit about the Strood would work better as a footnote - it's enough of an aside that it really doesn't belong in an introduction.
Essex is bordered by the River Thames to the south rather than London, which is at the south-west corner of Essex.
"underneath the River Thames via Dartford Tunnel"
'underneath the River Thames via the Dartford Tunnel'
"In the UK Parliament it holds 17 constituencies across its 3,674 square km (1,419 square mile) land area"
That's a bit tortuous. How about
'Covering an area of 3,674 square km (1,419 square miles), Essex encompasses 17 UK parliamentary consituencies'
"and consists of many famous places, bearing the history of many famous faces."
Well, it consists of a lot more than just those two things. And 'many' is a word which I find to be much over-used in entries. I think that bit needs to be reworded, and 'famous lives' might work better than 'famous faces'.
"With Chelmsford as the central town of the county and Colchester"
'The two biggest towns in Essex are its county town Chelmsford, and Cochester'
"which was adopted by the Romans as the capital city of England and is thus the oldest recorded English town"
Is it the oldest recorded English town *because* the Romans chose it as the capital of Britain (or whatever it was that they called it - there was no such thing as England at the time... I think), or did it just happen that way. I mean, does the one definitely follow on from the other? Was Colchester known about before Roman times?
"There are two unitary authorities1 not including these"
The 'these' referred to in that sentence are the *towns* of Chelmsford and Colchester, not the borough councils that you list below, so that sentence doesn't work in that respect. The footnote doesn't give me any idea of what a unitary authority is - what does 'singularly ran' mean? And I think that should be 'singularly run', possibly with a hypen... not sure about that.
Is Essex the second largest in terms of area or population? I know that paragraph is dealing partly with population, but it wouldn't hurt to clarify.
"resulting in parts of Essex being incorporated into the Greater London region and surrounding counties"
'resulting in former parts of Essex'
And have have any parts of surrounding counties migrated into Essex? The way it's written makes it almost sound like Essex is gradually being whittled away. To be honest, boundary changes are so common throughout the UK that I wonder if this is even worth mentioning, apart perhaps from the parts of Essex that were absorbed into Greater London in the early 60s and about which debate still rages (even here on h2) as to whether their address is, for instance, 'Romford, Essex' or 'Romford, London'.
"Much of Essex's history is spread out in its towns and villages. In its castles, stately homes, listed buildings and forts which have become tourist attractions that are open to the public"
That really goes without saying. Cities, towns and villages are more populous than outlying rural areas, so historical events are bound to take place where the people are, as opposed to where they aren't. History is more than just a list of events of course - it's an ongoing thing that encompasses the entire population of a place; their lives, their movements, their occupations etc. So again, I think this a part of the entry that needs rewording. Something along the lines of 'Essex is an ancient county, rich in history'.
In addition, "In its castles, stately homes, listed buildings and forts which have become tourist attractions that are open to the public" is an incomplete sentence, and there could be tourist attractions that aren't open to the public - something that you can go and look at but you can't go inside. I can't think of an example of the top of my head... let's say for instance that you could go and look at the Cutty Sark from the dockside but you weren't allowed to go on board.
"Some other historic events include:"
No historic events have been mentioned up to now, so those below can't be 'others'.
"giving Essex the meaning"
I can't put me finger on this one, but that just doesn't sound right. Maybe there's nothing wrong with it but it doesn't seem correct to me. I would ahve said something like 'The county was founded by the Saxons around 500 AD; the name 'Essex' meaning 'Land of the East Saxons'. As an added bit of interest, I might have thrown in a footnote saying 'As opposed to Wessex - 'Land of The West Saxons', which may or may not have been dumped in the editing process.
"The Saxons main weapon; the seaxe (a short curved sword) was later"
'The Saxons' main weapon, the seaxe (a short curved sword), was later'
"was later duplicated and used on Essex's coat of arms"
'was later used on the county's coat of arms'
"In 1381 when a poll tax was put upon the whole country. Wat Tyler's famous peasant's revolt began in Brentwood which spread quickly down to Kent and upwards to the rest of the country and Tyler marched down to London to confront Richard II, though he agreed to stop the tax the 14 year old king soon went back on his word"
->
'In 1381 when King Richard II imposed a poll tax upon England, Wat Tyler's famous Peasants Revolt began in Brentwood and spread quickly. Tyler and thousands (?) of others marched on London to confront Richard, and though he agreed to repeal the tax, the 14 year old king soon went back on his word'
"On June 16, in backlash to this, London was stormed and Wat Tyler was killed; the forces were held back into Billericay by the King's men and another 500 Essex men died, but it would be another two hundred years before another monarch, Henry VIII, would attempt to put a poll tax into place"
->
'On June 16, London was stormed by the king's men and Wat Tyler was killed. The protesters were pushed back to Billericay where another 500 Essex men died, and it would be a further two hundred years before a British monarch (Henry VIII) would attempt to enact a poll tax'.
Now, I'm simply rewriting there what was in the entry so that it's grammatically correct. My knowledge of the Peasants Revolt is very thin, so it might turn out to be incorrect factually. That bit about 'another 500 Essex men' for instance. There was no mention of a *previous* X number of Essex men being killed.
"One of the most famous speeches made by Queen Elizabeth l2was made at Tilbury in front of a garrison of 12,000 strong troops:"
'One of the most famous speeches delivered by Queen Elizabeth I was made at Tilbury in front of a garrison of 12,000 troops:'
That very brief section about the Battle of Gravelines needs fleshing out with more explanation as to its Essex connection.
"was the last traitor to be hung at Tower of London in 1565"
'was the last traitor to be hung at Tower of London, in 1565'
The comma makes it clear that he was the last traitor to be hung at the Tower, not the last one to be hung that year.
"in order to pursue a job he had lusted after for many a year"
Could we know what that job was?
"He was put under house arrest for the crime"
What crime?
"he tried to lead a rebellion against the government for 12 hours but was eventually caught"
That sounds very odd indeed. 'Tried to' - so he wasn't successful in doing it? '12 hours' - that's not much time to do very much anyway. 'was eventually caught - 'eventually' is a word I associate with actions that last much longer than 12 hours.
"hung on a specially crafted platform in 1601"
If it was different enough to warrant a mention that it was special, it ought to be explained what was special about it. This whole section leaves me wanting to know so much more, but it's very difficult to get a grasp on exactly what I should go and look for without having to read about Essex's entire story, which I shouldn't need to do just to find out a few facts. The section needs to be expanded just enough to leave no loose ends, or the loose ends should be removed.
I think subheaders for each of those sections would be a benefit.
Dang - I'm going to have come back to this another time. I've spent almost two hours on this post and I need a break.
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 11, 2005
Mina, as far as I know there is no other crossing other than the bridge, which is one-way, Thurrock to Dartford and the tunnel, also one-way, Dartford to Thurrock. (I guess in an emergency situation, of one of them being closed, they can both be adapted temporary for 2 way traffic)
Re-Fords Credit, I misunderstood, I thought someone said it had closed down.
BH, Thank You for taking the time to go through this entry, my apologies for there being so many things that need correcting.
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Mina Posted Dec 12, 2005
"Mina, as far as I know there is no other crossing other than the bridge, which is one-way, Thurrock to Dartford and the tunnel, also one-way, Dartford to Thurrock."
Yes, that's what I mean. The signs don't refer only to the bridge because the tunnels are used to cross to. So even if the road signs refer to 'dartford crossings' I think the bridge should be referred to by its real name, you can bracket 'commonly called...' etc.
My dad was talking about smuggling the other day - do you want to touch on that subject as well?
Also the coast of Essex is 300 miles long, so I think it would be good to add in that figure so that if people don't quite believe it they've got the numbers to check. It also explains why our water rates are so high!
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 12, 2005
Sorry to go on about this Mina, I readily accept when I am wrong (which is often ) but in this case, I am correct...the road signs in Essex are for the bridge only, not the tunnel, Dartford has the road signs for the tunnel.
It's not only commonly known as Dartford Crossing, it's sign-posted as Dartford Crossing. Try googling for Queen Elizabeth ll Bridge, it hardly exists in that name.
With 300 miles of coast line I'm sure there was lots of smuggling, could add some on that.
Oh and BH, I'll be putting Thurrock back into the paragraph about the bridge, one of the first signs you see as you exit the tunnel is "Welcome to Thurrock" so I think it's reasonable to use Thurrock as the bridge's location.
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 12, 2005
Ok Mina
BH, I'm going through your post, in this bit
>"There are two unitary authorities1 not including these"
The 'these' referred to in that sentence are the *towns* of Chelmsford and Colchester, not the borough councils that you list below, so that sentence doesn't work in that respect. The footnote doesn't give me any idea of what a unitary authority is - what does 'singularly ran' mean? And I think that should be 'singularly run', possibly with a hypen... not sure about that."
The towns *these* refer to is Southend and Thurrock the two unitary authorities, though it didn't make sense to me that they weren't counted, as they are part of Essex...I'll find that info again later, check it and try to make it clearer...
Not sure how else I can expalin unitary authorities, will try to find out more about that.
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish Posted Dec 12, 2005
I think Ford Credit and the finance offices were seperate
ford credit was still in Warley just down the road from the hq in the late 90s / early 2000s
at the I had done a geography project in Basildon in 95/6 and the finance buildings were still there
=====
Famous essex person --- Edmund Reade --- lived in wickford many years ago (even before alvin stardust) and was a member of the upper classes. Is a common ancestor of president dumb george and john kerry
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho Posted Dec 12, 2005
If 'these' refers to Southend and Thurrock, the sentence needs to be rewritten because it doesn't make grammatical or logical sense. When you say 'these' you normally refer to something you've already mentioned (the towns of Colchester and Chelmsford in this instance), unless you make it clear that you're referring to something that's yet to be mentioned. I think, in fact, the whole paragrpah needs tidying up:
'Essex is the sixth most populous county in England and the second largest [again - population or area?] non-metropolitan county after nearby Kent. The two biggest towns in Essex are its county town Chelmsford, and Colchester which was adopted by the Romans as the capital city of England and is thus the oldest recorded English town [still need to know if that's cause and effect]. There are 14 borough councils in Essex, two of which are unitary authorities.'
Paul Gallico's book The Snow Goose (about the Dunkirk landings) was centred on the Essex marshes, but I only just found out upon doing a bit of research that he was in fact American, and apart from one other book I read as a kid (Jennie), he also wrote The Poseidon Adventure. Never knew that.
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Mina Posted Dec 12, 2005
"I am correct...the road signs in Essex are for the bridge only, not the tunnel, Dartford has the road signs for the tunnel."
It's possibly you're misunderstanding the road signs, but as I say, I'm going that way tomorrow, so I'll check them out. I might be remembering them wrong!
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 12, 2005
Finally found out where I'd got that sentence from, the old PR thread...
>"essex - 6th most populous county in England
the area administed by essex County Council - ie essex minus the two unitary authoirites - makes it the 2nd larged non metropolitant county in england (behind kent)"
Looks like it is the area, not the population. Wasn't sure if it was The_Jon's own words or copied from somewhere, so I reworded it a little. My brain needs a rest, I'll come back to this tomorrow.
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 14, 2005
Just found this:
http://images5.fotopic.net/?iid=ybp6pd&noresize=1&nostamp=1&quality=70
Road sign at Orsett Cock roundabout showing 'Dartford Crossing'
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Mina Posted Dec 14, 2005
They were signposted Dartford Toll Crossing on the M25, but then, they signpost the M25 the 'London Orbital' which I find hilarious as that doesn't appear on any map I've got!
Anyway, I still think you should call the bridge it's proper name, and then give the 'commonly called' bit. Just because everyone else on Google gets it wrong doesn't mean we have to.
I've been given some extra bits and pieces by my dad (including a bag load of books!), some might need some research though.
Here's some comments so far:
London is to the south west of Essex - not the south.
The history is a bit strangely selected, going from 500AD to 1932, to 1381 to the spanish armarda with no date. I'd suggest wiping these sections, and adding a timeline, in date order, with a couple of short sentances about each time if you feel it's important. The idea of these entries is to give a sort of index or holding page, and linking out, so when hopefully someone writes an entry about some of the things that have been mentioned we can add a link to it from here.
Here's some things I think should be added.
7th C - St Peter's-on-Sea saxon chapel built at Bradwell-on-sea. This is the oldest chapel in England, still standing, has been restored.
11th C - Greenstead Church, said to be the oldest wooden church remaining in the world, built.
1118 - St Osyth priory built - it became one of the wealthiest priories in Europe. (http://www.channel4.com/history/timeteam/2005_osy_t.html)
1880s - Bell Common Cricket Club started - moving to Bell common in 1947, and they play on the most expensive cricket pitch in the world. When the M5 was built they destroyed the cricket pitch, created the Bell Common tunnel, then put the cricket pitch back on top. (I'm not entirely sure this is within the border, I don't have an atlas to check).
1953 - Floods hit East Anglia, killing 307, including 58 people on Canvey Island (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subjects/flood/826674/882909/426221/426336/?lang=_e)
I think the list of councils and the populations, may be useful for people to see which areas of Essex don't have entries yet, but can it be moved to near the bottom? lists of nbames and numbers aren't very interesting, but if links can be added to that list to entries that do exist that would show the gaps.
I'm posting this as I keep worrying my pc will crash and I'll lose it! I've got some more bits to add.
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Mina Posted Dec 14, 2005
Military links.
Colchester Barracks should get a mention I think - I can't see a link to the colchester entry in this one, am I going blind? The Barracks is mentioned in that entry, but only in passing. It's apparently got the 'hardest' prison, military or otherwise, in the country there, if you can survive that, you can survive anything. Built in the 1800s, it's the sole surviving military prison the 'Military Corrective Training Centre' of the British Army.
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Mina Posted Dec 14, 2005
There is some more, but I've got to go to work now!
I'll post some more when I get another chance.
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 14, 2005
>"Anyway, I still think you should call the bridge it's proper name, and then give the 'commonly called' bit. Just because everyone else on Google gets it wrong doesn't mean we have to."
Everyone else on Google hasn't got it wrong, neither have I. It is Queen Elizabeth ll Bridge in name only. But, I'll word it so we'll both happy.
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 14, 2005
I've dealt with some of your points in post #21 BH, the rest I need more time for, which I haven't got at the moment, hopefuly will have over the next couple of days, same with yours Mina
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 14, 2005
erm, I've just re-read your post Mina, I can't include every Essex historic event, this is already longer than most of the UK Counties & Regions projects. I'd rather do short paragraphs than a time line, or then Entry will just look like a load of lists.
Emmily
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish Posted Dec 14, 2005
it was populations I was referring to, not area. I'd raided the national stats web site.
techinally Southend on Sea is the largest town in the ceremonial county of Essex, however Chelmsford and Colchester are the largest in the administertive county.
(I don't know about the rest of you, but trying to work out what districts / boroughs were part of the county, are part of the county and are part of the county when the mood takes it is really confuzzeling me)
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish Posted Dec 14, 2005
Kelvedon hatch secret Nuclear Bunker ---> Hatch
which like its town are surrounded ---> towns
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Dec 14, 2005
>"(I don't know about the rest of you, but trying to work out what districts / boroughs were part of the county, are part of the county and are part of the county when the mood takes it is really confuzzeling me.)"
Hmmm I don't know what the difference is between a district and a borough, I was just copying your info.
Emmily
Key: Complain about this post
A7524975 - Essex - England, UK
- 21: There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho (Dec 11, 2005)
- 22: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 11, 2005)
- 23: Mina (Dec 12, 2005)
- 24: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 12, 2005)
- 25: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 12, 2005)
- 26: the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish (Dec 12, 2005)
- 27: There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho (Dec 12, 2005)
- 28: Mina (Dec 12, 2005)
- 29: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 12, 2005)
- 30: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 14, 2005)
- 31: Mina (Dec 14, 2005)
- 32: Mina (Dec 14, 2005)
- 33: Mina (Dec 14, 2005)
- 34: Mina (Dec 14, 2005)
- 35: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 14, 2005)
- 36: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 14, 2005)
- 37: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 14, 2005)
- 38: the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish (Dec 14, 2005)
- 39: the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish (Dec 14, 2005)
- 40: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Dec 14, 2005)
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