h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

First time a topic on h2g2 had genuinely upset me.

I think there are enough alcohol-related problems in this world without encouraging games where the idea is to get senseless.

Sorry if you think I'm a killjoy. But don't fool yourselves into thinking this is just harmless fun. It isn't.

It is not your harmless fun, or even harmless fun for x thousands of others, but for many people it is. Not to downplay the troubles that ethanol causes, but most people can handle it no problem, and are still responsible, even under the influence of the demon drink. Caffine, for some people, is not just a pick me up in the morning, but a serious problem, does not mean that the coffee police come to your door and take it away, or people are not allowed a cappachino.......
BCNU - Crescent

I saw little in the way of being "senseless" described in these games. As a matter of fact, there appears to be more in the way of illustrating the effects of alcohol as a result of over-consumption.

I once played a game similar to the F-Zero game where driving on a video game and drinking were combined and, i'll tell you what, i've never combined spirits and automobiles since.

Perhaps it is time for people to take responsiblity for their own actions for a change. I suppose that we should not talk about politics on the internet either as some people are predisposed to vote Democrat and elect morally bankrupt liars.

Crescent, ACE:

I knew my comments wouldn't exactly be welcomed. People don't like being told what they should and shouldn't do in a 'free' world.

But you really should differentiate between drinking 'alcohol' and drinking coffee. The affect on people and society bears no comparison.

Even if most people can handle their drink and are responsible, a very significant proportion cannot.

So often it is the innocent who suffer because of people who drink too much. And you cannot imagine how much pain and suffering it can bring.

I know what alcohol does, some of my family have been adversely effected. But how does that equate to stopping me reading about drinking games? Which is what you are asking......
BCNU - Crescent

In defence of crescent I would like to add that we all know drinking is bad for us, just like smoking is but that doesn't mean we should stop talking about. Some people enjoy drinking some people don't.I have a member of my family who has a chronic drinking problem but I can still enter in the fun of the converstion.

I feel awful, because I'm not explaining myself very clearly, and you all probably think I'm a jerk.

All this drinking comes across as 'a bit of a laugh'. Of course, we've made games out of it. Games where some people will drink more than they should. And sometimes it leads to something bad. Even tragedy.

Maybe when the article is put together, there'll be room in it somewhere to remind people about some the possible dangers in drinking games.

And I'm sorry if I've upset any of you, which truly wasn't my intention.

I do not think you are a jerk, at all - I think it is a good idea that there is a section on the dangers of drinking
BCNU - Crescent

I agree that there should been a warning (or even a disclaimer to prevent lawsuits) about drinking games. Ah the stories I could tell about me and alcohol. There was this New Years party once and this girl...................I don't think I need to go on.

And Crescent NO TELLING.

Hi Kaeori,

I hear and understand your concerns. I certainly believe that if h2g2 (or any group of people having a discussion) started from scratch and attempted to construct a consistent set of attitudes to drink, drugs, cigarettes and so on, they would come up with something very different from the views they (or society) currently hold.

People drink. Of course.
There are problems, of course: alcoholism, drunk driving, violence.
People have always drunk, will always drink.
Many of us would not be here without it. Some are not here who would be.

Because the total abolition of alcohol is not possible, whether or not it's desirable, the most important thing is that people learn to get the good things it can bring when used wisely (relaxation, friendship, even possibly some health benefits) without falling into the many and serious traps which await.

On one level, drinking games do not seem to be about this, but it's possible they can be. For a start, they're about social drinking, which is less harmful than drinking alone; but there is more. Most people play them when young adults, at the start of their drinking 'careers'. They take people too far into drunkenness, and a few people will get hurt by this. Many, many others will be taken to the level where the small disadvantages kick in - hangovers, nausea, broken sleep, even simple embarrassment.

Those small disadvantages are, for most people, the reason that when they get into their later twenties, they start to moderate their drinking. They have jobs, and know they will not be able to do them properly. They have children, and know that if they get incapable, they won't be able to look after them. No-one moderates their drinking out of fear of the alcohol-related diseases which kill: they do it because the exceses make them feel like hell. Drinking games can actually accelerate that process - I think they did for me - and as such, may almost be a good thing.

I am aware that this sounds a fatuous justification for something potentially harmful, but when you look at the reasons people do things, they're often fatuous. If everyone placed safety ahead of fun, there would be no hang-gliders, rock-climbers, nor any contact sport. People need release, and sometimes we just have to accept a small degree of risk to achieve that.

Thanks for raising the subject, it was worth discussing.

GVI

Alcohol in itself is not a bad thing. Used in moderation, it helps you relax, reducing stress and lowering blood pressure. Red wine has proven to be an effective preventative for high cholesterol, and there is reason to believe that other forms of ethanol offer this same benefit. All things in moderation... including moderation.

But in order to learn to use alcohol properly, one must first explore their own limits. That can only be done with experimentation. Extreme experimentation. That is what drinking games are all about. If you read through the suggestions, you'll find that:
1) All of these games are played with others, so there will be someone around to help you out if you go too far.
2) All of these games are played at someone's home, where you are unlikely to harm innocents should your judgement escape you too much.

As for alcoholism, everything gets abused. For some it is caffeine. For others it is nicotene. Still others spend too much time on the Internet. But if you take away the freedom to do these things, you only harm the majority who will *not* abuse them. Would you like to see your Internet access revoked because some people don't leave their homes anymore?

I will not get into a car when I have had too much to drink. Furthermore, I will not drink so much as to endanger my health. I know how much my body can tolerate, because I had the sense to get senseless at my buddy's house and puke off his balcony. Uno, anyone?

I don't want to provoke heated exchanges and upset lots of people. Perhaps most people can control their drinking most if not all of the time.

But, at the risk of annoying people, and mindful how wary we might be of the selected use of statistics, I'll just stick my neck out.

In Britain, alcohol is a factor in:

70% of homicides
43% of assaults
82% of incidences of disorder
30% of road accidents
14% of road deaths (i.e. 10 deaths every week)
33% of child abuse cases
40% of domestic violence incidents
61% of suicides
28,000 deaths each year
one quarter of all hospital admissions

(sources: Guardian 1/16/96; Times 4/4/96, 11/22/96; Independent 10/19/95, 12/5/96; TES 11/14/97)

The holy book of the Muslims, the Quran, points out that in alcoholic drinks there is both benefit and harm, but the harm outweighs the benefit. I guess that's why in our societies we accept being governed by laws that aim to prevent harm to indiviuals ('gotta wear your seatbelt') and wider society ('don't drive over the speed limit').

And you know something? You can have a real nice life, with lots of friends, fun and happiness without drinking alcohol at all.

Hey, why not play drinking games with non-alcoholic drinks?

Hi Kaeori,

I'm sorry but I think you're missing the point.

First of all, this article is nothing to do with whether drinking is good or bad (I agree, mankind would probably be better off overall if alcohol didn't exist). You won't get any non-drinkers saying "I was tee-total, but that game sounds such fun that I must go out and get legless tonight". People who play drinking games are already out to get hopelessly drunk: the contributions here are to help them have *more fun* getting there. And drinking *can* be fun and harmless.

Secondly, you are asking for trouble quoting the Quran in support of your argument, because it has been used in the past to justify too many things - from the subjugation of women to war on the entire non-Arab world - to be relied on as a way to run your life. I could point out that Jesus turned water into wine, though I have no evidence that Bunnies was played at the last supper.

The abuse of alcohol is a source of misery, pain or death for many people, but then so is religion. However, both have been invented and if you take them away, people will carry on making their own underground. They give many people relief from drudgery, loneliness and despair, and it's hard to imagine the human race without them.

I don't want to come across as combative - of course these games can be played for other kinds of fines, such as forfeits or who'll have to do the washing up, and I hope any readers who do that enjoy themselves - but please recognise that drinking, and drinking-related activity, is a real part of human existence, and to deny it won't make it go away.

GVI

Oh, I don't know what to say. I undertsand your points, but disagree with some of them. But I don't want to provoke pointless argument.

Alcohol has played such a negative part in my life that I find it hard to accept that we should sit back and take it as part of normal life forever.

In my country (USA) we had prohibition in the early part of last century. It was a disaster.

Before dismissing the Muslims, whose bad media image is hard to reconcile with the few practising Muslims I have met, it's worth noting that their attitude to alcohol and its place in their society undermines the notion that it is an essential part of life that should just be accepted.

Perhaps the main difference between American and Islamic prohibition is that the latter were convinced that what they were doing was morally correct, whereas many Americans were not. Moreover, Muslims were prepared to sacrifice their desires for what they believed to be true. Americans, even if they thought drinking was bad, were not prepared to give it up.

Back to drinking games, I just want to say that I personally know people, usually but not always inexperienced drinkers, who have played drinking games even against their better judgement, not wishing to lose face in front of their friends, exceeded their limits before realising it, and gone on to regret it.

I do apologise if my tone is inappropriate for h2g2. I don't want to spoil things for everyone else. This is one of the very few issues that I feel compelled to take seriously.

Hi Kaeori,

You have the right to say what you believe: h2g2 is a big enough forum for everyone to speak their piece. I certainly never intended to censor (or censure) you, just disagree.

This is a huge grey area. The harm done in individual cases has to be weighed against the innocent pleasure many people do derive from drink, and how you view that of course depends on your own personal experience. I'm not saying I know all the answers, and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

I am ambivalent towards alcohol: I don't get drunk any more - it's been the better part of ten years since I have - partly because it makes me feel terrible, but mostly because I don't like the person I become after too many drinks. I said hurtful words and did stupid things (though thankfully I never actually did anyone any harm, except myself and that only mildly). However, few things in life make me happier than getting to the end of a nice sunny day - perhaps a round of golf with some friends - then sitting with those same friends and a cold beer.

I spoke up in support of drinking games because I consider them less likely to lead to the negative behaviours than many other forms of drinking. Alcohol tends to enhance the existing mood, and playing games is a good way to get into the right mood for enhancing.

As for regretting what you do: it all depends how severe the regret. Having done things while drunk which result in cringes of embarrassment (like sleeping all night in a field), or feeling like hell afterwards - those are the good regrets I'd encourage, leading to a more mature relationship with alcohol. Obviously a drink-driving accident, a fight which leads to you getting arrested, or losing your job for missing work are not the same kind of regrets. It is important to bear in mind that these can happen, and if possible to have people around who are going to stay in control and help avoid them.

As for Muslims: I had no intention of offending them, simply pointing out that ancient doctrine doesn't always apply to modern life. Christianity is just as full of nonsense. I'd have to say the Muslims I've known, who lived in Western cultures, were fine and friendly people - but then they mostly didn't mind having a drink or two either

Life's a balancing act. People love rational debate, but they don't act rationally. The hardest thing in the world is to watch someone else make a mistake - but sometimes you just have to. Maybe I'm too libertarian, laissez-faire and morally lax. I just call it as I see it.

Once again, thanks for providing a forum for stimulating discussion. It was worth doing.

GVI

GVI:

One of the things I like about this place is that everyone is real friendly. Thanks for responding in a nice way.

Those stats are inflated. Police will check the "alcohol as a factor" button anytime anyone involved had anything to drink, when in many cases it was unrelated. A person has one beer, then gets into an argument with the spouse, and the cops come in because they're making too much racket and the neighbors called, and it is still considered "alcohol related." Even if the drinker was a guy watching sports, and his wife snapped and started throwing things at him.

Alcohol is, by itself, neither good nor bad. I tried to show that by mentioning some of the positive effect it can have. As far as behavior modification, it varies widely between individuals. My observation is that it enhances your own personality. The belligerent drunks I've known have been belligerent sober people. Alcohol robs them of strength and speed, though, so I'd much rather fight them when they're drunk. Moody drunks are moody sober people, they just cry louder drunk. And fun drunks are fun to hang out with before they take a sip... they're just more likely to dance naked on the table.

Alcohol is not for everyone. People who abuse other things will abuse alcohol, but those who take the rest of life in moderation will do the same with alcohol. The problem there lies with the *people*, and not with the alcohol. But the victim society that has arisen in the last 40 years feels it necessary to place blame, on everything from parents to the media to a glass of wine.

Let's face it, Drinking games can be dangerous, more dangerous than just drinking for pleasure. This is because you give away your ability to control your own consumption. You instead have to adhere to the rules as they are laid down, and that's the real problem with drinking games. It's not the drinking, it's the lack of control.
Of course, you could always just get up in the middle of a game and walk away - but you have to be able to handle the peer pressure (sorry for the teenager cliche) as every drunk idiot around the table tells you how you "can't handle your piss".
This is why I only ever play drinking games with friends, and never at a party full of strangers.

I enjoy this discussion, I like how people exchange ideas and come to understand each other's point of view.

I want to tell you about my experience with alcohol, just so you know this is the way it works in some places with some people. Do I want alcohol banned? No. Do I want discussions encouraging the use of alcohol censored? No. What I want is that people be free to make their own choices, even dangerous ones, BUT before they do that they ought to be well informed. Then, even if they go ahead, they will be better prepared for the potential harmful effects - or even manage to avoid them. So let's talk about it, by all means.

I drank for the first time at age seventeen or eighteen. I was just curious, I wanted to know what being drunk felt like. And I liked it. I drank with my high school friends on a few occasions. I never drank without getting drunk - I wanted and tried to get drunk. I never did anything bad while drunk, I just laughed, joked, goofed around and enjoyed myself. When I went to university, at first I did not want to drink, because my studies were important to me. But many of the people in my hostel encouraged me to drink, so I drank. Again with the intention of becoming drunk. It was not a matter of "drinking games" as described here, but the parties revolved around alcohol and we made up all kinds of little ways to get people to have one more drink. The whole party in fact was a kind of drinking game. Always I was the life of the party, I said things everybody laughed at, I chatted up girls with great ease, it worked out terrifically. I didn't have a car, I staggered home each time, always being extra careful. I actually liked the challenge of trying to stay on my feet when I'm hardly able to, I liked the challenge of trying to speak intelligibly, to keep my eyes focused and mind clear when it was under full attack from the ethanol. I made a game of fighting off nausea and unconsciousness for as long as possible.

I never enjoyed the taste of beer, wine, whiskey, vodka, whatever. I would just down it as quickly as I could to cut to the chase. I always prided myself on how well I stayed in control while I was drunk. But I pushed the limits. Ten cans of beer was not enough, an entire bottle of vodka was not enough. In the end I always pushed it to the point where I passed out. If I vomited I'd just replace whatever came out. I couldn't remember what I did the previous nights, I woke up in incredibly embarrassing conditions. I found that as soon as I had taken the first beer, I was heading straight towards that state and nothing could stop it. I never harmed anyone else, I never was unpleasant, I never behaved recklessly in anything other than the drinking itself. But I sure as hell was harming myself. I tell ya, there's nothing cool about waking up at 3 o' clock the afternoon with a skull-buggering hangover, on the cold tile floor of your room in a pool of reeking vomit, still dressed in the same clothes you put on the previous day, with your door wide open and people walking past and able to see you.

So basically it ended up like that because I liked the way alcohol made me feel, but drinking decreased my self control. So by the time I felt the way I wanted to feel, I wanted to feel it even more and was unable to control myself and I pushed it way beyond sensible limits. Nobody ever told me "you've had enough now". Instead they gave me an award for being the biggest party animal among them. When I found out that I reacted to alcohol in this particular way, I stopped cold turkey. Today I don't drink at all, because if I start to want that feeling and give in to it, the old cycle will just start again. I get by splendidly, I have no problems being social, my mindset is just fine, I don't want to forget my problems, I want to keep my head clear so I can solve them. I don't ever miss the drinking.

In general I've found that "friends" don't look out for each other much, they try to get each other drunk and enjoy watching each other embarass themselves. Being drunk decreases responsibiliy, so unless at least one guy stays sober and has enough authority to control the others, groups of drinkers can end up doing very stupid and irresponsible things. And while I had enough self control to quit when I figured out that I couldn't handle the drink, many other people will discover to their dismay that they cannot stop, even if they want to. And unless they have people around them who can help them, they are headed down a destructive path.

So my message is this: don't enjoy drinking or being drunk TOO much, be aware that drinking decreases self control, be aware that drunk people tend to act irresponsibly, take care when you drink, take care who you have around you when you drink, beware of the drinking crowd who want you around for fun but don't really care what you do to yourself.

Hey, there. Sorry to jump in on this. I just gave up drinking and all sorts of other stuff, but I'm still working in an environment where I see a lot of people getting pissed every day and I'm starting to beleive the statistics now. Where I live (South Africa), I think we have the highest incidence of road accidents and deaths due to alchohol abuse. This has started to strike close to home now, when a room-mate's sister has been killed, another friend's brother killed and yet another friend KILLED in car accidents while driving drunk OR(more often than not) as innocent parties getting hit by some pissed asshole who walks away from the accident saying "What happened.....". Another incident involved an asshole that I know getting completely motherless, jumping into his car and driving off. He came up to a roadblock (designed to prevent DUI) and drove straight into the police cars, putting two cops into ICU. Everyone keeps saying to me "Oh, the poor guy". I keep thinking about the poor cops who were trying to stop dicks like him doing it. And he probably won't learn from this, because if they don't throw him in jail, he'll be in the pub the very next day and start from step one again. The disturbing thing about this is that there are thousands of people who do this, and they probably think that the world should feel sorry for them...