h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Evolution may or may not be the
way animals came obout.
I would though go quite hevely on
the yes it is side as there is no
equivelent idear that explains so
clearly how animals as they are today
came about.
Creationism has meny meny flaws
1.The idear of a god whith a
personallity.(shorly if God
is every thing then he can not
have one personallity trait
over another!And if he has them
all he must be both Good and Bad?)
2.It fails to explain the mecanism by
which God creates animals.
3.It denies the fact that speices
boundries are not cut and dry they
are fuzzy.
Isnt that enough to discredit it ?
And if one rejects evolution+creationism
has any one any other serjestions.
JK the unwise

Please take a look at the other thread of Creationism vs. Evolution. There's a little story of Adam the First Cell in it (posting 10). :-) http://www.h2g2.com/F58051?thread=92151&latest=1

Valid point Jar, however we would have to disprove each version of creationism Islamic & Jewish/Christian etc. But I think that the evidence is genericaly applicable for almost any religion.

I've always thought where dinosaurs fit in with creatonism. Surely Adam and Eve would have had a bit of a tough time being chased out of Eden by a Big T-Rex. Things that big surely would have been mentioned in the bible

This can be quite frustrating!

"I would like to see proof of Creationism. I would also like to see how Creationism explains everything Evolutionism explains, and then explains more. Actually, I would like to hear exactly what Creationism
is. What does it claim, how far does it go?"

It's probably a bit glib if I humbly suggest a reading of a translation of the Qur'an. And it might seem evasive, though it is certainly pertinent to all sides of the argument, to ask what you would accept as 'proof'. I will really, really try to write some articles and post them on my page. But briefly, God created all the universe and everything in it. He was not created -- He is without beginning or end. We don't know how He created it. And nothing we have seen in the universe contradicts this view. We can study the stars, the galaxies. We can study the smallest detail of matter. We can study the plants, the animals. But we don't waste our time trying to prove that humans evolved from apes.

"When a hypothesis is undermined by observations, the common reaction is to rewrite the hypothesis, or even reject it, if it is impossible to defend it any longer. That is what makes Science better than religion."

I suspect that despite all the undermining (much of which we haven't yet touched on), people won't be able to let go of evolution because of the implications of doing so. BTW, I'm not speaking here for all 'religion' - that would be impossible. And Science is a broad 'church' too.

"Dictionary definition of Creationism: 'The Belief that the bibles account of creation is literally true'"

O man, back to Genesis!

"all one has to do is disprove the Bible on any point to make it worthless, and thus disprove Creationism."

Aaarrgh!!

"I am beginning to suspect that you are mearly playing the devils advocate because you have done nothing but out right contradict our messages and refuse to describe your own theory."

Not at all, but I have tried to explain my reservations about evolution in detail and with reference to research *by evolutionists* (rather than my own conjectures). My objective is not to annoy you, so I apologise if that's what I've ended up doing. My objective is to convince anyone who's interested that the popular view of evolution is not at all what it should be -- and I'm clearly failing in that objective!

So, let me come at this 'debate' from the other end -- how life started on earth. Any ideas?

Have you considered that it is perfectly possible that life may not have started on earth?

UfO=paranoia
but I have herd some convicing
meteorites with life on crashing into
earth idears.
(atualy I still think It started here and
that some bloke with a beard sitting on a tree
didnt need to start it off)
Man did not desend from apes
man and apes have a common ansester
who isnt around now adays 'cus man and
apes made him extinct.
(through compation)
nothing that has said here has conviced me evolution
is a fulty hypothosis.
Even if it did I would not turn to a rediculas and
controdictionary hypothosis like creationism
what a joke!

>>It's probably a bit glib if I humbly suggest a reading of a translation of the Qur'an. And it might seem evasive, though it is certainly pertinent to all sides of the argument, to ask what you would accept as 'proof'. I will really, really try to write some articles and post them on my page. But briefly, God created all the universe and everything in it. He was not created -- He is without beginning or end. We don't know how He created it. And nothing we have seen in the universe contradicts this view. We can study the stars, the galaxies. We can study the smallest detail of matter. We can study the plants, the animals. But we don't waste our time trying to prove that humans evolved from apes.<<

Please do write those articles! I allready look forward to reading them. Still, this version of Creationism is inferior to Evolutionism in that it explains very little. It says "God made it". Evolution says a whole lot about how. Evolutionism is not perfect and it will be revised a lot of times, possibly even rejected in favour of some other theory along the way. But it will not be replaced (at least not in my mind) by a theory that explains less. That would be reverse development.
As long as the only thing you are saying is that "God made it", nothing will ever be able to contradict your theory, as it implies nothing. It does not matter how anything is, because "God made it" means nothing at all. Even if God exists (something I doubt) the theory makes no attempt at explaining anything.

I honestly belive God is the ultimate ad hoc hypothesis.

>>So, let me come at this 'debate' from the other end -- how life started on earth. Any ideas? <<

Few ideas, but try to have a dash of flour and a sprinkle of water in an airtight container for a few months, and you'll see life has appeared... It's quite funny, but not really a valuable observation. The flour could have been contaminated.

Canadian biologists have done something interesting though. (According to "Vitenskapens Verden", a norwegian scientific magazine for the layman) They have apparently made life (one-celled beings with the ability to reproduce) with only cilicon. That's mindboggling. Non-carbon life... I'm digressing... This last part contained nothing of value at all.

Muqtadee, your explanation of how life started

"God created all the universe and everything in it"

and

"He was not created -- He is without beginning or end"

is NOT a explanation at all. You just assign a symbol to it: god. That's it. Genesis is a little fairy tale you surely are not taking serious.

So here is the question: how did life start? And if you believe such a thing as god is involved, state how it's life started.

I really do not think this argument can reach a resolution in the terms that are being used here. Creationism attempts to explain the beginning of the Universe, evolution theories do not.

Also there is really no longer any single theory of evolution, there are a whole host of them, some in very direct opposition to each other. Chaos and complexity theory have opened a can of worms from which biology and evolutionary theory may never quite recover. (cf for instance Kaufman - 'At Home in the Universe'.

Science does not attempt to explain the Universe in the same way as religion or mysticism and the general recognition of this means the argument between them is a pastime rarely any longer indulged in by experts in either field. At the extremes of both beliefs there is actually a natural reconciliation.

Muqtadee, your explanation of how life started

"God created all the universe and everything in it"

and

"He was not created -- He is without beginning or end"

is NOT a explanation at all. You just assign a symbol to it: god. That's it. Genesis is a little fairy tale you surely are not taking serious.

So here is the question: how did life start? And if you believe such a thing as god is involved, state how god's life started.

And if you don't know, then you have to admit that you are actually saying: it is like it is, and I don't know anything.

On the other hand we have the Evolution Theory, which is the only starting point for a real explanation.

Wonko-the-Sane, I wrote:

"He was not created -- He is without beginning or end"

then you asked:

"And if you believe such a thing as god is involved, state how it's life started."

Looks like the answer preceeded the question. Do you have a problem with the notion that God doesn't have a beginning? If so, the universe?

Oh, and please, please, please -- I'm begging you here -- Genesis has nothing to do with me or my faith.

Have you never heard of the theory of "Big Bang".
It may be a little out of date but as theories go, it is a good one.

I think I am going to grow my hair long, buy a big grey robe and start preaching my own creation story. It works so well that I almost feel sorry for the brainwashed individuals.(possibly making a few bucks by publishing a book explaining my divinity).


I Hate Propaganda.
(I'm sure everyone agrees with me, one way or the other)

Ah, I must agree with you there. As theories go, it's a good one. Lots of research, evidence and brilliant mathematics. Big Bang -- wasn't that when a whole universe came out of nowhere? Something from nothing; sounds like creation!

---
"Do the unbelievers not realise that the heavens and the earth were one, and We parted them?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)

"And it is We who have built the universe with Our power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)
---

You might get more fame and money digging up old bones and giving them a nice name and 'evolutionary' history. Donald Johanson, who found Lucy, had a position teaching anthropology in Cleveland, but he felt he had to prove himself by finding a "missing link":

"With these credentials, I had managed to get some funding for my first expedition as a co-leader. I knew, though, that I had to prove myself by finding some hominids (ape-men) or the money would dry up." ('Ancestors -- In Search of Human Origins')

Ah, I must agree with you there. As theories go, it's a good one. Lots of research, evidence and brilliant mathematics. Big Bang -- wasn't that when a whole universe came out of nowhere? Something from nothing; sounds like creation!

---
"Do the unbelievers not realise that the heavens and the earth were one, and We parted them?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)

"And it is We who have built the universe with Our power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)
---

You might get more fame and money digging up old bones and giving them a nice name and 'evolutionary' history. Donald Johanson, who found Lucy, had a position teaching anthropology in Cleveland, but he felt he had to prove himself by finding a "missing link":

"With these credentials, I had managed to get some funding for my first expedition as a co-leader. I knew, though, that I had to prove myself by finding some hominids (ape-men) or the money would dry up." ('Ancestors -- In Search of Human Origins')

Oops, sorry!

If God created the universe and everything in it, he must have created himself. It's all contridictions.

My favourite bit of religious madness is this: God is perfect. So, if God didn't exist he wouldn't be perfect. Therefore God exists.

The creationists don't offer up any evidence for their theory because there isn't any. Religion is based on faith, to try and base it on fact marks you out as a nut. Just try telling people – even those who claim to believe in God – that Adam and Eve were real, that Jesus raised the dead or that Noah took two of every animal on earth (what about the plants?) to save them from a deluge and they'll probably think you're mad. Quite rightly too.

So let me see.
Islamic people parted heaven & earth did but people who don't believe in Islam didn't.

OK?

Islamic people built the universe with their power they are currently in the process of expanding it.

ok?

And finally finding important anthropological discoveries will increase funding to continue looking, where as not finding anything will reduce funding.

Which of these statements sound a little iffy?
(I had better stop now before I recieve a fatwa.)

bad grammar but I think you get the gist.

Actually I think most astronomers would tell you that the Big Bang isn´t definitely the beginning of it all. You can just see that there happened a Big Bang a long time ago, and we just still haven´t found out what came before. Or if anything did. Or what caused it.

BTW, I think it´s interesting that those three quotes were from books where the newest was actually 14 years old.