h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>> RF - in the words of somebody or other, democracy may not be perfect but it's the best system we have. <<

I think you're referring to Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst possible system of government, apart from all the otheres".

If you see my post as an attack on democracy then you are missing the point entirely. And when Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition win an election with a similar turnout,I shall accept that result too.

What I object to is the assertion that a majority of the population supported the ban, and using Labour's last 2 election victories as "proof". Firstly, as shown previously, Labour did not get in to power with an absolute majority of UK registered voting public. Secondly, not everyone who voted Labour did so on the basis of their policy on fox hunting. My mother, for example, voted Labour because she liked Tony Blair's hair.

Whilst proof in these matters is difficult to come by, I would assert that the majority of the UK population actually didn't really give a toss about foxhunting one way or the other. The only people who seem to have got worked up about it are a bunch of crypto-communist Labour backbenchers who were still fighting a long-forgoten class war based on the politics of envy. In the words of the reverend Tony Blair, "it's time we moved on".

RF

Crypto-communist Labour backbenchers? If only!

Although basically I agree with what you're saying. The thing about fox hunting is that it's a relatively easy way for Tony to throw a bone to the more disaffected Labourites, on an issue which - let's face it - is hardly that important compared to Iraq, for instance.

OK. So I'm not against the idea of pest control. But, I'm sure all those who chunter on about "country traditions" are the same lot who 100 years ago would have argued to keep slavery, and 20 years ago [and this really is giving them the benefit of the doubt] belatedly recognised the rights of all people irrespective of race, creed, colour, sexual orientation etc.

As for the dogs having to be destroyed, this is strange coming from those who have bred them specially to destroy other sentient beings.

Exactly.

We stopped slavery because *some* people believed it to be morally wrong, despite there being a very good economic reason to keep it. Whether those objectors were in the majority or not is largely irrelevant. "Tradition" doesn't come into it; as civilisation moves on we will object to more and more things that used to be "the norm", and in most cases rightly so.

<>

Why not indeed. I'm sure the fluffy-cute thing has a bearing, but foxes are also rather more intelligent than fish (more so than domestic dogs too in fact), but cruelty is not the only driver. It is the ceremony, the fanfare, the entire industry and yes, the fact the protagonists are generally upper-class and even have a uniform for the occasion; the occasion being the brutal death of an intelligent mammal. Personally I find that offensive at best and downright sick on occasion. Fishing may be equally cruel, and may itself be subject to further regulation in future, but it is not nearly as offensive.

>> OK. So I'm not against the idea of pest control <<

This legislation has nothing to do with pest control. it also has nothing to do with cruelty to animals or animal rights. The people who ensured that this legislation was passed don't give a flying about foxes.

RF

When the fox hunting debate first opened seven years ago I was ambivalent about the whole thing. However, as the debate progressed I began to realised that the hunters didn't have a leg to stand on, even if they were sitting on a horse. So many conflicting arguments it was unbelievable. How can you talk about the fox being a pest in one breath and wildlife conservation in the next.

I am yet to be convinced that the fox is a pest. True foxes have been known to kill chickens and sheep. But I would say that is an effect of fox hunting, not the cause.

A foxes natural pray is hares and rabbits and other small mammals. Left to its own devices it would hunt those. A fox will keep as far away from humans as possible, unless its starving and cannot go after its natural prey because it has been driven from its natural environment.

If foxes were truly the pest that they a made out to be they would have been eliminated years ago along with the wolf which was in competition with humans. Hunters themselves have said that they do not kill enough foxes to make any difference.

If the fox is a pest, get rid of it. Shouldn't take more than five years if that is really the objective, not the 350 years that fox gunting has been going on for. If it isn't, leave it alone to get on with doing what it is that foxes do that really has no impact on humans.

As said earlier, cock fighting and bear baiting were banned years ago because they were the pursuits of the lower classes. Fox hunting and hare coursing survived because they were the pursuits of the rich and powerful. We have now reached the stage where money doesn't buy votes anymore so fox hunting and other cruel sports can take there rightful place alongside cock fighting and bear baiting.

Donald

I don't think it's because money can't buy votes any more - but things have changed. The 'rich and powerful' aren't really the traditional types any more - they are more relics of a bygone time than the key players in the land.

Hmmm, im just gonna lurk on this convo apart from adding something...

For the people who called hair coursing an upper class blood sport, they obviously dont know of its popularity with pikeys (hell, Im not gonna use the phrase 'New Age Travellers' and I dont know another PC name for them) and large number of the residents of my local estate(Knowle West, famous for such achievements as having 1 in 10 people addicted to smack. And having the Queen visit last Friday. I hoped they swept up all the needles and foil.)

Maybe hare coursing has a history of upper classness, but Ive never known it as such, and as far as I know is still legal as long as you dont use more than two dogs.

And you can still take out a pack of hounds and get them to tear apart a rabbit if you want.

Blicky, I did say it was a 'view' and I was really only trying to help someone out in a debate - I don't have any opinions on things like fox hunting anymore. Three years as a BBC employee washed all my strong opinions out of me. If I'd realised this was going to turn into a debate I wouldn't have touched it with a bargepole!

>> How can you talk about the fox being a pest in one breath and wildlife conservation in the next. <<

In the same way as how deer are culled, and even elephant are culled. This is the nature of conservation.

>> True foxes have been known to kill chickens and sheep. But I would say that is an effect of fox hunting, not the cause. <<

>> A foxes natural pray is hares and rabbits and other small mammals <<

Foxes will kill whatever they find easiest. They are opportunistic hunters. Hares, frankly, can easily outrun a fox. Sheep, and especially newborn lambs, are a far easier target.

How is this being caused by hunting?

>> A fox will keep as far away from humans as possible, unless its starving and cannot go after its natural prey because it has been driven from its natural environment.

No, really, you're having a laugh with this one, surely? There are more urban foxes than country ones. This is adaptive evolution at work.


>> If the fox is a pest, get rid of it. Shouldn't take more than five years if that is really the objective <<

Rats. Rabbits in Australia. Flies. Mosquitoes.

>> As said earlier, cock fighting and bear baiting were banned years ago because they were the pursuits of the lower classes <<

The level of cruelty in baiting an animal, or training it to fight another of its species, isn't really the same as hunting a fox. Before wolves and bears became extinct in the UK, foxes did not occupy the top predator status they currently enjoy. Being attacked by a higher predator is quite common (cf. lions and cheetahs in the Serengeti). I don't think you're really making a valid point there.

RF

>> In the same way as how deer are culled, and even elephant are culled. This is the nature of conservation. <<

But nobody has ever suggested that deer and elephants are pests. I don't know about elephants, but the reason that deer have to be culled is that they have no natural predators. They used to have and nature did all the culling that was required in form of the wolf. Until humans in their infinite wisdom got rid of it. There is now even moves afoot to reintroduce wolves into the Scottish Highlands.

>> Foxes will kill whatever they find easiest. <<

True - and sheep are not he easiest of prey when the fox knows that where there are sheep, humans will not be far away. If a fox gets into a hen-coop the chances are that it will kill every chicken it finds. That is not normal behaviour for any animal. However, if the fox has been driven crazy by being chased by a pack of hounds baying after its blood, then unnatural behaviour is to be expected.

> >They are opportunistic hunters. <<

The fox is an ambush hunter. It will lay in wait for its prey and pounce, literally, as soon as a hare or rabbit is careless enough to wander within pouncing distance. No chasing required. It's not averse to a bit a scavenging either when the opportunity arises.

>> There are more urban foxes than country ones. <<

More out of necessity than choice. Not many men in red coats in an urban area.

>> or training it to fight another of its species, <<

Well thats what the Fox Hunters do with the hounds. One canine doesn't normally hunt another. Quite often a young foxhound will be given a fox cub to kill in order to give it the taste of foxes blood.

>> Before wolves and bears became extinct in the UK, foxes did not occupy the top predator status they currently enjoy.<<

Are you suggesting that the fox should be hunted just becasue it is the top preator. <<

>> Being attacked by a higher predator is quite common (cf. lions and cheetahs in the Serengeti). I don't think you're really making a valid point there. <<

So they do, for the purpose of food and survival, not for sport or any other nefarious reason. Foxes don't compete with humans for food, whereas bears and wolves did.


Donald

I thought bears and wolves ate porridge and grandmas.

Can't make up my mind on foxhunting, so keep going, there's a vote to be won here.

I do rather like the red coats and horses galloping in the distance or milling around while I'm trying to get from a to b, but on the other hand I'm not terrifically keen on wild animals being torn from limb to limb. This may make me the only person in the country who is satisfied with the compromise of the new (apparently unenforceable) legislation.

It's a tough one. It makes Labour look (not for the first time) as though they don't really understand how rural life works, and it makes the Conservatives look like a bunch of country landowners with no idea how ordinary people live. *These are not necessarily my opinions* but I have heard both expressed in RL.

Does anybody know what the survival rate of foxes is for hunting vs other methods of killing?

Do organic farming methods (ie, in the theoretical 'harnassing Nature' sense) include anything on the control of foxes?

Mol

The question is predicated on the fact that the fox needs to be controlled. AS I stated earlier, I have yet to be convinced of that. Unlike the deer, the fox has no natural predators and never has. Nature finds it own way of controlling the level of a species. Left to it's own, the fox will find it's own level. It is not that good a hunter and it is unlikely to eliminate the hare or rabbit population if left uncontrolled.

Depends what you mean by survival rate. Depending on who you are talking to between 1 in 4 and 1 in 10 foxes are actually caught and killed during a hunt. However, once the pack has caught the fox then the survival rate is Nil.

However, that doesn't tell the whole story. Imagine being chased for four hours or more across country and finally giving your pursuers the slip. You would be miles from anything you recognise and in a state of physical exhaustion and mental stress that all you can do is to lay low for the night till you are absolutely sure your pursuers have given up.

In the meantime, the cubs you left behind in the den are eagerly waiting for mother to come home with some food. If she does finally make it home she will be empty handed and to scared to poke her nose above ground for days.

Yes, nine out of ten foxes may escape the hounds, but that doesn't mean that fox can carry on as if nothing has happened. Foxes are intelligent animals, as pointed out earlier, probably more intelligent than your average domestic dog. Being intelligent creatures one can only assume that they suffer psychological problems after being chased through the countryside for hours on end, perhaps not for the first time.

As for organic farming, I don't think that is going to effect foxes one way or the other.

Donald

I'm not sure foxes do need to be killed, but they are going to be, aren't they, unless they get protected species status.

I take your point about exhausted fox being miles from home, but slowly bleeding to death outside the foxhole must in the end be worse (in that it ends in death, which the other *might* not) - which is why I asked the question.

The question about organic farming stems from the apparent threat to livestock (ie, ducks, chickens, lambs) from foxes. If they are a threat, do organic farmers use conventional methods for dealing with this, or do they have some other 'organic' solution (eg keeping stock in a fox-proof environment at times of risk). I am not entirely convinced by the argument that if there were a better way of protecting vulnerable livestock than hunting foxes, it would have been adopted long ago. Hunting on horses cannot possibly be an economically viable (in terms of both expense and time) way of protecting lambs and chickens.

I realise this question hangs on the dubious premise that organic farming is somehow based on working with nature rather than against it. Organic farming makes use of tractors rather than horses, and there's no reason why it wouldn't make use of shotguns as well. I suppose I'm trying to find a different approach within the farming industry, and that was the best I could come up with. Vegetarian communes then, if they breed sheep for wool. How do *they* deal with foxes? Or do they find that there is not a problem to deal with?

Mol

>> Hunting on horses cannot possibly be an economically viable (in terms of both expense and time) way of protecting lambs and chickens. <<

Exactly. So you have to think up another reason. Pest control is a non-starter.

>> It is said that during the late 19th century a shortage of foxes in England forced hunts to import foxes from France, Germany and Holland.

In fact, the Swedish Red Fox, which was known to be a larger animal than the one found in Britain, has been introduced to Britain to create the more substantial "European Red Fox" that we see in our towns and countryside today. <<

http://www.derbyfoxes.org/history.htm

Now try and convince me the fox is a pest. You don't import a foreign species when the indigenous species starts dying out if it is a pest. Which only goes to support my earlier assertion that if the fox was truly a pest, it would have been extinct by now.

Notice the photograph in the quoted web site of the fox with its guts ripped out. Not a sign of a bite mark on the neck! Alvaney, where the photograph was taken is less than ten miles from where I live so you can't dismiss me as a "townie" who knows nothing of the country.

Donald

I'm not dismissing you as a townie ! I'm not trying to convince you that the fox is a pest ! I'm just interested in the argument !



My understanding of the hunting ban is that it is intended to allow people who wish to wear red coats and ride around the countryside over each other's farmland to continue to do this, provided they don't chase foxes at the same time. I quite like the concept of allowing a tradition to continue while removing its original purpose (like May Fairs). I'm not saying it will work in practice.

I *don't know* to what extent the fox is a pest. You've presented evidence that it isn't. I'll be interested in what the on-line farmers post in the morning.

I'm more interested in the debate here than I was in RL at the time all the campaigning was going on, because I'm hopeful that here at least there will be more reasoning and less spin. And ideally less polarisation (ie not nut-eating animal-lovers vs strident landowning fox-haters, which is how tv interviews came across - and I *know* those are stereotypes and I'm not saying that's been happening here, in fact I'm saying that it *hasn't*).

Blimey

Mol

>> I'm not dismissing you as a townie <<

Sorry Moi. I know you are not.

I was just preempting those that will and have done in the past.

Britain of full of traditions that are continued with little connection with their original purpose. May Fairs and the whole May day thing is a good example. Originally to do with fertility rites for the coming growing season, but nobody believes that kind of thing anymore.

Chester still has a Town Crier plying his trade during the summer. In this day of the Internet and instantaneous world wide communication there are still Town Criers! Still, the tourists like it. I can imagine that hunting on horses with red coats could become a tourists attraction. Hire a red coat and a horse for the day and go galloping across the countryside and make believe your back in the 19th century along with the Town Crier. Now there's an idea for some entrepreneurial individual.

Donald

Thank you. A bit tired and I over-reacted. Night-night!

Mol

>If a fox gets into a hen-coop the chances are that it will kill every chicken it finds. That is not normal behaviour for any animal.<

It seems perfectly reasonable behaviour to me.

As far as the average fox is concerned, a chicken coop represents a positive smorgasbord. It makes perfect sense to kill everything in the enclosure because it represents a readily available food source which involves no hunting, thus removing the uncertainty as to whether you van feed your rapidly growing cubs or not.

ALL canines will eat whatever food source is available until they are gorged. Try it with a dog sometime. They will eat until their bloody eyes pop out, the greedy b*st*rds.