h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

let's sue tony blair for making us all lokk like idiots

An excellent idea, crazyhorse.

Kea,

" I belong to a class of people that has more power in this society than others."

What power?
I hear a lot about all the power I'm supposed to have and see precious little actual power that isn't also available to anyone else who has made the decision to not be powerless.
So what's this mysterious 'power' that white men are supposed to have?

"white working class people have priviledges in the West that Blacks and Indigenous peoples don't."

I hear this a lot too. Name them.

Rev:

I am reminded of a parable, which I shall transcribe here in its entirety. It has direct bearing on the topic at hand, so I would hope that everyone reads it and take time to think about it before commenting.

"One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit St. Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself and an ethereal female voice said

'Yes?'

'O Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!'

'What bothers you, Mal? You don't sound well.'

'I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprision sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe!'

'What is the matter with that, if that's what you want to do?'

'But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!'

'Oh. Well, then stop.'

At which moment she turned herself into an Asprin commercial and left the Polyfather stranded alone with his species."

This would seem to argue that we make a choice to be oppressed and we make a choice to hand away the power that we have to others. If we have made that choice, no amount of litigation and blame will put things right. We should accept that whatever happens to us, we in some measure allow. If we disagree with what is happening in our lives, we should be looking for a way to make it stop. If we believe that the society in which we live is responsible for harming the majority of people who live in it, we should be looking to remove that society as a whole and trying something else.

It is important that we learn the lessons of the past, but sueing Lloyds for their part in the slave trade would be like litigating against the building contractors that put Auschwitz and Belsen together, or suing the rail company that provided the rolling stock. At some point, you have to accept the lesson and move on.

Anything else is vindictiveness, or simple greed, at which point it's really nothing to do with justice, oppression or equality and all about the fast track to easy money.

In a nut-shell, albeit a rather largeish one.

My modus operandi has typically been "live with it or fix it". Simple enough?

GradientI have heard it before at it is still flawed.

Heres why:

Lets take a boy hes bullied, physically and verbally. Made to feel if not worthless certainly worth less. He is not allowed to own property and therfore does not learn how to look after his own property.

When all those disadvantages happen day in and day out a lesson is learnt and a coping mechanism is developed do that he can survive with them.

Then one day the people who control his world say "now you are equal, you can own property, you can live free of violence and oppression just like everyone else".

Cool thinks the boy I can be a man just like everyone else, but he has never learnt out how to. There are some people who want to help, there are some people who are indifferent (hi Gradient) and those who inadvertanly keep remnants of his old life like name calling going (hi,..you know who you are) and there are those who dileberately want to keep the boy down.

So to compound his own faltering attempts to live equally there are those who are trying to trip him up and those who snort with derision that its probably his own fault when he trips up and there by instill in hm the depressing feeling that he may never really be able to be equal. All the while saying "well he has got a chance", but what kind of a chance?



one love, one day maybe

It is important that we learn the lessons of the past, but sueing Lloyds for their part in the slave trade would be like litigating against the building contractors that put Auschwitz and Belsen together, or suing the rail company that provided the rolling stock. At some point, you have to accept the lesson and move on.

Well lets just say we will move on when the lessons have been learned from what I see some of us havent fully understood the lesson.

Anything else is vindictiveness, or simple greed, at which point it's really nothing to do with justice, oppression or equality and all about the fast track to easy money.

So are you saying Im greedy and vindictive?

one love

>>Lets take a boy hes bullied, physically and verbally.<<

Blickybadger, if yours were an accurate analogy, your boy would have died around a hundred years ago. Pretending slavery is the cause of today's problems does nothing to resolve them. If anything, it's likely to exacerbate them.

>>Well lets just say we will move on when the lessons have been learned from what I see some of us havent fully understood the lesson.<<

If some of us haven't learnt your lesson, how about working on your teaching skills?

>>So are you saying Im greedy and vindictive?<<

Are you one of the plaintiffs? No? Then what on earth makes you think Gradient was referring to you?

Slavery only ended 140 years ago; the economic and social inequality that stems from it is still alive and kicking, unfortunately. This *needs* to be acknowledged. Yes, in dealing with the problems its left behind we have to start from where we are today. And we have also to deal with all the other problems of oppression in the world, be it sweat shops in the third world or whatever.

Although I'm not convinced that a group of individuals suing Lloyds is a particularly good way of acheiving this, I agree with pretty much everything Blicky has posted here (good contribution from Kea, too). Legal equality may be important (indeed, indispensable) to the sort of society most of us want, but there's a lot more to the social and economic dynamics of an *actual* society than just legal equality.
The maintenance of injustice requires hiding the levers of power from ordinary people, whether in Swiss bank accounts, corporate boardrooms, or the corridors of power. The decisions that oppress people are taken out of sight. Autonomy, respect, and self reliance have to be learned from the immediate environment. Deny people the right environment and you deny them the resource that is most needed for legal equality to be useful.

Noggin

Blicky,

let's clear something up.

Sueing a company like Lloyds appears to be a move to force a that company to settle out of court so they don't have to admit in court that they took an active part in the Slave Trade. That settlement will be substantial and you have to ask what the true motivation is.

If social justice is the goal, why is the end result going to be money?

"there are some people who are indifferent (hi Gradient)"

I'm not indifferent at all. I believe I said:
"If we believe that the society in which we live is responsible for harming the majority of people who live in it, we should be looking to remove that society as a whole and trying something else."

...which is advocating revolution. How, exactly, is that indifferent?

If tweaking society from the inside isn't working, or isn't working quickly enough, perhaps we should simply remove it and replace it?

"So are you saying Im greedy and vindictive?"

I have no idea whether you are greedy or vindicitve. I cannot comment on your personality or behaviour and would not do so without direct experience and evidence. Making unsubstantiated comments about the behaviour of an individual in print is libel.

Hi Mycroft, do excuse me for trying to be creative and use an analogy to get a complicated idea across in an eassily digestible way. Of course the little boy would be dead. If you are interested you might want to check out the moratality rates for descendants of slaves from africa and compare them to the aggregate rates for people in the west. Then have a think about how accurate my analogy is on that level.

>>Well lets just say we will move on when the lessons have been learned from what I see some of us havent fully understood the lesson.<<

If some of us haven't learnt your lesson, how about working on your teaching skills?

Well you have me there I havent had much sucess in the past with some people but I will keep on trying. However some people are prepared to make the effort to think about whats being said and look a little deeper for information themselves, sadly I dont have the time or skills to spoon food information to those who cant be bothered.

>>So are you saying Im greedy and vindictive?<<

Are you one of the plaintiffs? No? Then what on earth makes you think Gradient was referring to you?

Mycroft, it was simply a question, its what people use in the hope of learning things, you seem to have matered it yourself. Welldone. I was simply enquiring: that as someone who could potentially benefit from such class actions, someone who thinks they are just does and ought to be brought to court does Gradient consider me "greedy and vindictive"?

one love

Hi Gradient,

Lets take another look at the parable then.

'But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!'

I would contest that this is not true. Even disregarding the input of those who as individuals bring their own nasty prejudices to bare on as many people as they possibly can AND those who band together in organisations to promote their devisive and harmful ideologies of hate. We can still see companies at work in the world today who see it as in their best business interest to ferment discord and profit from the ensuing upheavals. Companies who prey on those who are in a position of finacial weakness to trap them in a system of subserviance.

It is not the case that "everbody hates it!" at all


I'm not indifferent at all. I believe I said:
"If we believe that the society in which we live is responsible for harming the majority of people who live in it, we should be looking to remove that society as a whole and trying something else."

...which is advocating revolution. How, exactly, is that indifferent?

Why not allow due process why stand in the way of people even attepmting to steer society gradually. Rather than advocating revolution which has never been something that has come without upheavals that cause harm to some very often to a great many through severe violence.

I have to question your use of this argument, it sounds suspiciously like "you have been given all you're going to get if you really want more you will have to fight for it". Is this what you mean?

As someone who has a love for all people I would hate to see the process of equality being overtaken by a violent rage to overcome inequality that replaces one oppressor with another, by a system of which side sheds the most blood of the other side, which is what often happens with revolution.

If you are advocating revolution it does show a lack of empathy for the high likelyhood of human the suffering it would cause...now whats a good word that sums that up

one love

>>Hi Mycroft, do excuse me for trying to be creative and use an analogy to get a complicated idea across in an eassily digestible way<<

Blickybadger, no I won't excuse you. It's not creative, it's just lazy. There is a serious subject here and you trivialise it by simplistically reducing it so inaccurately. If you can find a workable analogy, go right ahead, otherwise accept the fact that you have to treat the subject with the respect it deserves and address its complexities.

>>If you are interested you might want to check out the moratality rates for descendants of slaves from africa and compare them to the aggregate rates for people in the west<<

I have studied them. Have you? I haven't found any evidence to indicate that the disparity in mortality rates is directly attributable to being related to slaves. Can you point this evidence out to me or are you just assuming there's a connection?

I'm somewhere between what blicky and Gradent are saying . . . and I'm not even sure if they are too far off in finding a common ground between them. Will have to have a think about what both have said and - if you're all very lucky - I won't bother to post my opinion!

It *is* all shades of grey though. On a very personal level I have plenty of people I could *blame* for *ruining* my life. And maybe I could even take some of them to court and get some dosh from them. I am even allowed by Canadian law to become a treaty Indian (well, I think they call it something else now, the PC-ers). To somehow make up for what happened to some long lost relatives on my mother's side of the family. I've never understood why I should qualify for this. But in the end I have disqualified myself by living in Europe.

Strictly on a personal level I see no point in trying to get recompense for past hurts done to ancestors, etc - even on a personal level I have problems with that concept.

Sh*t happens. Most people don't ever have the chance to do anything but pick themselves up and keep going. Not fair. Not right. But sometimes I think it is even more damaging to somehow think that the world owes us a living. That for every wrong done to us we should expect someone to balance that out with a right.

Well, now I am getting a mit fuzzy in what I am trying to say, so I'll stop now and have another think about it. Hope I made at least a bit of sense somewhere.

az

*sits on floor and lets conversation fly overhead......*

"I have to question your use of this argument, it sounds suspiciously like "you have been given all you're going to get if you really want more you will have to fight for it". Is this what you mean?

As someone who has a love for all people I would hate to see the process of equality being overtaken by a violent rage to overcome inequality that replaces one oppressor with another, by a system of which side sheds the most blood of the other side, which is what often happens with revolution."

Revolutions do not have to be violent.

As several people have shown throughout history, the best way to instigate a change of thinking is to simply not do what oppressive forces want you to do.

Revolution is as much a change in ideals and methods as it is a sudden 'take to the hills! Overthrow the dictator!' situation. And the point of the parable, which most people miss, is that if enough people find a situation intolerable it can and will change. But first they must realise that they have the power to make that change. If people sit quietly and do nothing, nothing ever changes. So steering situations gently and through the establishment actually does very little to improve things.

In the past, men like Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King have appeared and helped focus the attention of a whole population...but do we need such men? Why can't we take the responsibility for change on our own shoulders and begin by sharing ideas, potential solutions, methods of non-violent protest, strategies?

Instead of suing Lloyds why not do some research and find out which of the corporations of the modern world supported the slave trade? Publicize this. Ask people not to buy from them or use their services. Point out where alternatives, especially alternatives formed by the communities affected by the slave trade, exist that people can turn to in order to make a real, solid difference. Any capitalist company is going to notice a dent in it's profits far more than a court case.

We're in possession of the best resource in history to diseminate information on a huge scale. Think about it.

A Guide entry on the ripple effects of the Slave Trade, the companies that still profit from it, would be a starting point. For every liberal mind on H2G2 that takes notice, you potentially reach another 200 people. If the message is strong enough, those people may well spread the word. And if the EG isn't a good place for this, then there are hundreds of webhosting companies who will gladly hand over space for a small fee.

The point is, rather than play by the rules of the society that perpetuates the problem, raise the general awareness that there IS a problem and tell people what they themselves can actually do to help. If enough people become aware, if enough people decide that they do not want to perpetuate the crimes of Slavery, then a revolution (of one sort) is inevitable.

why does a poor slob who robs a liquor store get 30 years hard time...and a fat cat that at robs a savings a loan for millions get off either scott free or in an open prison with his own key and tennis courts

Gradient as you say a guide entry about this would be a good idea. Yet as Mycroft says my skills arent quite up to getting the idea across. You might need someone like Ghandi or MLK for that, but dont forget the people who were moved to do those things with them. They did not do it by them selves.

OK. Im dropping my rubbish attempt at analogy. The descendants of slaves are bought up in a sub-culture that at home has in general less wealth due to the effects of slavery. Their ancestors also have less experience of sucess relative to the white neighbours due to legitamised segregation and restriction of opportunity.

It is easy for people outside a culture to say why dont they act like they can win, stop eating, crap food and generally be more like the majority.

Cultural inheritance is hard to shake. If you have ever been asked to do it for a chance of sucess and you have managed it you are a person of true vision and I admire your pertinacity.

This is even harder when the world is not entirely as Gradient suggests. Not everyone is interested in equality, fairness and peace, infact there are a good deal who for a range of reasons delight in keeping or increasing the suffering of others through any mechanism available.

I dont cal my self a reasearcher what I have come across is information mainly through work (youth & community work) and what Ive read in the press or seen in TV documentaries. So I thought Id have a little look. I typed in "death rates by racial group" and this was the first site in the list that came up.

http://www.hospitalmanagement.net/informer/management/manage16/


Death rate differences persist among US racial groups
In spite of these improvements, significant death rate differences persist across American racial and ethnic groups. For Caucasian Americans (both sexes combined) the 2000 age-adjusted death rate was 863.4 per 100,000. This compares to a death rate of 1,124.8 per 100,000 for African-Americans, and 582.5 per 100,000 for Hispanics, 502.0 per 100,000 for Asian or Pacific Islanders, and 697.7 for Native Americans.

The average life expectancy rose to new record highs for Caucasian and African-Americans and did not decrease for any racial, ethnic, or sex group. As with the death rates, significant differences in life expectancies persist across racial groups. For example, the average life expectancy for Caucasian males is 74.8 years, whereas African-American male life expectancy is 68.3 years.

Like I say its not my job to convince people here of anything and Im clearly not up to it, but I think Ive stated a counter case to some of the more stupid remarks made on the first couple of pages of this thread.

one love

>> I think Ive stated a counter case to some of the more stupid remarks made on the first couple of pages of this thread.<<

I think you have too blicky

I'm still trying to decide whether to take up Gradient's question about what mysterious power white men are supposed to have. Is there really a willingness to learn and understand on this issue?


I would like to ask the people who think that the history of slavery isn't a large factor in the different death rates, what do they think accounts for the disparity?

<>

It seems clear to me that the history of slavery *has* played a big part in later generations inability to function well within society. However, very unfortunately, this is only one part of other issues of inequality within Western societies. Having said that, I see no problem with focussing on one of the many issues in an attempt to make it clear and understood. After all, it is such a huge problem that we can only take it a step at a time and work with the issues that feel closest to home, so to speak.

az