h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It's not just parents, but also siblings, cousins, friends, girlfriends/boyfriends who are affected, so I would say there are plenty of people who are young enough to watch MTV who are affected. It's not only grieving relatives, but those of us sat at home worrying about our friends/relatives out in the gulf. I can perfectly understand being upset by the depiction of dead soldiers if you are worried that might well turn out to be your boyfriend/husband, friend, brother or whatever.

Does freedom of speech & expression include the news?
News, Photos,video? Art? Serious question. Is it meant for individuals or groups too?

I remember when the reserves were first getting called up. They were quite shocked they had duty beyond their reguarly scheduled times. That may surprise you, as it did me at first.

Many were in disbelief because they are young & optimistic. They believed something big would never happen. They had *other* plans in their minds! Many never dreamed they would have to fight!

People die every day. Echoing an earlier point : does that mean we should cut out every reference to reality and society from our TV screens/art/music/writing etc? These things shouldn't be ignored!

While it is true that people die every day, it is not usual to be in a state of constant uncertainty as to whether your loved one will survive, especially when they are otherwise fit and healthy, so not really comparable to someone dying unexpectedly of a heart attack. The dread is one of the worst things.

What about all the women who have a history of breast cancer in their family? They live in a permanent state of uncertainty. MORE so, because war is an irregularity for the Western world.

Bit insensitive to have all those boobs in the papers and on TV. Better get rid of those.

It may be silly, but when you start looking at the methods China uses to censor the media/internet etc...makes you think doesn't it? We live in a democracy. Ergo : we should be free to talk, act, and think as we wish. The videos aren't harming anyone in my eyes. They are just re-iterating a point of view!

That is for sure Napnod Every one is in limbo but some KNOW it!

I believe in the freedoms.
I believe you have the freedon to choose to view or not also.
I asked a serious question about groups.

Those are seperate issues from choosing to be cold to loss of life and loved ones. Did you purposely try to sting S?

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I keep up this argument mostly beacuse I feel an opposing point of view should be heard. I have a more personal interest, but to be honest personally I don't really think it was necessary or desireable for MTV to pull those videos, however I understand why they have done so (in saome cases, as I have said before I don't believe that all songs with a mention of war should be pulled) and also why some might be upset by videos depicting the death of soldiers. There are many problems with censorship, especially during wartime, when the government often reins in the media, which I think is possibly more important (although artistic freedom is also important I know). And indeed I would expect and am encouraged that people are getting upset, however I do believe (unlike Saturnine) that a limited ban during wartime of videos depicting the death of soldiers in order to spare the feelings of those with relatives or friends in the armed forces would not be the most heinous thing in the world. Similarly, I would not oject to the banning (should one exist) of a video containing footage of the collapsing Trade Centre towers on the anniversary of the attack.

No to your question S~
"So *there's* that rule that says I have to care about every single person in the world?"


No to your comment S. Because I do not TYPE you into a rigid pigeon hole S~
"you to know what to expect"

I UNDERSTAND. I just don't think that it is the right view to take.

Napnod, I do see your point of view, however :-

People who *actually* die, at a far greater daily rate than soldiers are ever likely to in the present conflict also have parents, siblings, cousins, spouses, children, etc.
I can see if there was a song entitled "Drop dead, you army scum", someone may think it was worth being cautious, but having people fretting about anything that might *possibly* offend the most delicate of soldier-associates seems to me to place the war on a more elevated footing than the rest of Real Life.

What about the numerous people who have a loved one with an unpleasant terminal illness - should all references to death be supressed for fear of distressing any of them?. Should we ban joke shops from having skulls in the windows in case someone is upset by seeing one?

Life Goes On. It maybe sad, but as yet there's no realistic (legal) alternative.

Some people worry too much. I *used* to worry a lot when mates went off and did risky things until I accepted that they'd either come back or not, and there was nothing I could do one way or another to change things. Accepting when you're powerless and saying "*%@£ it" is sometimes the best that one can do. I'm sure it's harder for family than for friends, but in the end, it's a matter of scale and it's their problem. If there's a part of the media they don't like, they can always watch something else.
When people I cared about died and things that were broadcast came a bit too close, I switched channels and remembered that countless people I *don't* care about die every day (in fact, every second). There's no malice, but life requires death, and I can only care about a handful of people that I actually know. Expecting everyone else to bend to my temporary sensitivities would be pretty arrogant.

In the end, soldiers get killed by the enemy or "friendly fire", not by song lyrics. I suspect if I were in the forces, I'd be more worried about the opposition, misdirected tanks or tankbuster planes, Patriot missiles or adverse reactions to injections or insecticides than the odd clip in a video.


Actually, on the car-crash front, I guess when the seatbelt-free Diana ended up dead there *was* an amount of spurious media censorship of car-crash related things for a week or two, though of course an innocent child pedestrian or three being mown down by a drunk driver or joyrider would never be important enough to deserve such consideration.

And why the *anniversary* of the WTC attack - do relatives not care the rest of the time? Would it be OK for a news programme to show WTC jumpers (when everyone has seen them already), but not a music video?

It's just a debate, for the benefit of anyone who happens to read this as well as those who participate. And Sat, I know you well enough by now to know it is unlikely that I will change your mind, the same way it is unlikely I will change my mind (though it has been known to happen ) I'm just putting my view across as to why I disagree with you and my reasons for it, which I'm sure you appreciate.

Having just moseyed through this thread I have to say I can understand how people can be disturbed by images and lyrics that make them think about potential reality. I wonder if that's the reason MTV has censored these pieces of music, though. Seems to me that the truly offensive bit is what's actually going on in the world right now rather than the art that depicts those issues. Funny how it's so easy to censor peripheral material as if that would make anything better for anyone.

Entertainment MUST go on. And it MUST be entertaining, right?

Hi ho.

I have the freedom to say or not say whatever I want. And those who run MTV have the freedom to play or not play whatever videos they want. It's not as if the these songs have been banned from society.

Yep.
"the truly offensive bit is what's actually going on in the world"

As I have said before, I don't think that the temporary ban on certain videos / songs / TV programmes by autonomous organisations *isn't* done out of respect for the feelings of the families of soldiers, but because certain images and lyrics are inappropriate at this time. If it was just out of respect to the families, then I agree that it would look like a lot of other things ought to be banned as well, though they may be other arguments for why those kind of reduction ad absurdum arguments might not work. The reason why it wasn't appropriate for the National Rifle Association to hold their rally in a town hit by a school shooting is more than just to avoid offending the family of the victim/s, but also because of wider community feelings from those unaffected directly by the tragedy.

My point about compassion for soldiers was really about some of the points being made much earlier in this thread. And in response to Saturnine, I do personally think that there is a rule that people should care about every single person in the world - but then I'm a humanist, so I would think that. What form that care takes is another question, of course.

And as for your statement that the job of a soldier "is essentially that of a murderer", I can only assume that you're being deliberately controversial and trying to wind people up, because it's an absolutely outrageous thing to say.

I think that there is such a thing as a just war (I won't say whether I think that the current war is an example or not), and if there's such a thing as a just war, then the job of soldier is not that of a murderer. And what about peacekeeping operations, which can't be done by anyone other than the military? What about the successes in preventing the rebels taking over in Sierra Leone, disarming the Montanegrins and preventing civil war in Montenegro, delivering indepenence for East Timor, keeping the peace in Bosnia and Kosovo?

There's a debate to be had about each and every one of this missions, and how effective they've really been, but my point here is just to show that the job of a soldier cannot be considered to be that of a murderer. Do you actually have any arguments for that view, or were you just being a controversialist?

Otto

>>>certain images and lyrics are inappropriate at this time

Really? You won't like this then:

"All those who remember the war
They won't forget what they've seen..
Destruction of men in their prime
whose average age was 19"

- 19, Paul Hardcastle (one of the banned videos)

Extremely appropriate, I would have thought.

MTV can, of course, make its own decisions. But banning those videos because of you-know-what is symptomatic of a very damaging social situation. You can't protect people by keeping them in ignorance or taking their art away from them.

The songs on that list that I am familiar with are from talented and influential artists who feel very strongly about the content of their songs and take an intelligent approach to expressing them. I think this *does* qualify as censorship (since MTV would play them at other times) and I think that a society that condones this is in denial about life outside their own front door.

Otto, yesterday you said, "Correct me if I've misunderstood, but it's not that bands opposed to the war that have had their songs withdrawn, but songs with inappropriate imagery or lyrics at the present time."

System of a Down's "Boom!" is an antiwar song (directed by Michael Moore) that has been withdrawn. Whether this is for imagery, lyrics, or its anti-war content, it is wrong.

As I've said before, my brother-in-law serves in the U.S. Marines, but I still don't feel that censorship of ANYONE'S idea is ever a good thing.

Not to mention the fact that you state that these songs have "inappropriate imagery or lyrics at the present time." Who determines if these images are inappropriate? The massive global network which runs MTV? (Should we trust MTV to make ANY decision about morality?) Should the Government? Should a committee of "upstanding" citizens? Or should each person be left to choose what they view and listen to?

I do have compassion for our countries' soldiers, but I also have a strong held belief that when a society allows censorship to occur without speaking out, it begins to give up those rights and liberties which people in democratic and free societies hold dear.

Zach de la Rocha (of Rage Against The Machine) and DJ Shadow have released an anti-war song on the net:

http://marchofdeath.com/

I knew Zack would be busy at a time like this...