h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

For many words that are different in American and British English , both words existed in the language together in England at the time the first colonists went to America. Subsequently one died out in America while the other died out in England. This may have been what happened with gaol and jail. I always thought that "gaol" was a stupid spelling, because it disobeys the laws of English spelling. G before A should be pronounce hard, as in garden.

I see what you mean Gnomon. Although if we were to reject words on the basis of stupib spelling then we wouldn't have many left!

So no further ideas on po-faced then?

I've tried to hold back, but I must disclose that "Po" is a German word for "bottom". It is a very mild slang word, acceptable in most circles, used in the context of children as "popo" (mainly to describe ones found in nappies)

While writing this, I am listening to Radio 4 online and had to laugh at the reporter who is summing up Carnival in Rio. He said he was pulled into the fun by some kids who were members of the "Battered Ear" - it took me a while to work out that he must have meant "Batadia" - the drum section of the parade.

I've been reading "Do Not Pass Go" by Tim Moore and he suggests that Monopoly is the main reason we now spell gaol as jail. The fact that "prison" is the prefered term would also help the British spelling drop away.

*it needs saying*

In north America.
Jail seems to be a short term arrangement at a local level. They can be quite large but never as large as prisons. They house only minor offenders serving less than two years. Smaller jails are also situated in police buildings and court houses for holding 'prisoners' awaiting trial, bail or sobriety.
Prisons are more regional or national in constituency and serve for longer terms. Why these words are used thusly, I have no idea. Perhaps size had something to do with it as well.


~jwf~

Even "prison" is now falling out of favour in the US; nowadays they're called "Penitentiaries". Which assumes that the occupants are penitent, despite the overwhelming evidence otherwise. This is usually abbreviated to "Pen", which is curiously apt.

Because it is mightier than the sword?

Explain the relevance of that last remark, Gnomon!

TC

" "Battered Ear" - it took me a while to work out that he must have meant "Batadia" - the drum section of the parade."

That's interesting.
I listened to the programme. I heard the word as "bataria", probably persuaded by the French "batterie" drumkit, drums.

TC

Looks like you're right:

http://www.indiana.edu/~deanfac/blspr99/frit/frit_f505_2305.html

"Middle French Literature
F505 | 2305 | Merceron

As a survey of 14th- and 15th- century French literature, this
course aims to address a wide range of generic, esthetic,
thematic and socio-historical issues pertaining to this period."

Very worthy, I'm sure.

Gnomon,

"G before A should be pronounce hard, as in garden."

I came to the opposite conclusion. As "gaol" is a very old word, I decided to rely upon it to justify my pronunciation of margarine (marjoeen).
How do you pronounce margarine?

The pronunciation of "C" and "G" in all Latin languages obeys the following rule, which depends upon which vowel comes after the letter concerned:

Ce & Ci are pronounced softly: as "s" in French - "th" in Castilian Spanish, "ch" in Italian.
Ca Co Cu are pronounced as "k"

Ge Gi are pronounced as "dg" (in Spanish as a hard, guttural "h")
Ga Go Gu are pronounced as "g" (as in "go")

This explains/is explained by many things:

If you need to pronounce "c" as "s" in French and it comes before a, o or u, you apply the Cedille (little upside-down question mark under the "c") which represents a following "e" and thus softens the pronounciation from "k" to "s" - Comment ca va? (would have a cedille on the "c" of "Ca" but this might create heiroglyphics if I try to reproduce it here - none of the other ASCII codes work for me as they do on other keyboards)



You will not, in French, find a cedille under a "c" which is followed by "e" or "i".



Spaghetti is thus spelt because in Italian, to harden a "g" before an "i" or an "e", the Italians add an "h". This is probably why we spell "ghastly" with an "h".



In Italian, furthermore, the "c" is hardened by adding an "h". Machiavelli is pronounced Makkiavelly thanks to the "h", otherwise it would be pronounced Match-iavelly.



"ch" in Spanish, on the other hand, is pronounced the same way as in English. Therefore words like "macho" and "cucaracha" are pronounced "Match-o", "koo-kar-ar-tcha". So if you're using these words, you have to know in advance if they come from the Spanish or from the Italian.



This rule also has some bearing on "i before e except after c".



Exceptions to this rule which are found in English are due to the words having Germanic roots: the verb "to give" in most of its forms, including the substantive "gift".



Please feel free to challenge these rules with relation to English. After all, they are only based on my limited education in these matters, which are A-level English and French and those now over 30 years ago.

How, for example, do you pronounce the word "Schedule"?

I forgot Margarine and Gaol.

No idea about Gaol. But the pronunciation with the "j" sound in margarine evolved, so I have heard, retrospectively. During WW2 when the stuff was invented, the clever Chemist who developed it, named it after his girlfriend or something, anyway, with a hard "g" as in Margaret.

Due to its being abbreviated to "Marge" on a wide scale, people just assumed that the original word had the soft "g".

Although no one would call someone "Mardjeret" just because their nickname was "Marge".

Excuse me, must find a bucket - I hate marge, er.... margarine, er.... mardgarine......

Middle French.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, Plaguesville. I just based the assumption on the fact that Middle High German dates back to somewhere around the 10th Century or before, the earliest existing written works, in fact. So I was out by five centuries. Looks like the French were a little way behind there.

I find the French of the 18th and 19th Centuries much further from modern day French than the English of comparable periods. (i.e. it is easy to understand, say, Sheridan, but Voltaire has as much to do with present day French as the Italian in operas has to do with present day Italian)

Mamma mia

TC

The dreaded bread grease is much older than that

It was invented during the Napolionic wars.

http://www.imace.org/margarine/history.htm

Clever boy BB.

So the original pronunciation was definitely a hard "g".

The French, if I remember rightly, pronounce it with the hard "g"

In my lifetime I've heard people say margarine with a hard g.

Thinking of pronunciation, I used to call muesli, mwesli until someone laughed & said it was mewsli. Why? *Thinks of pronouncing suede*

Sounds quite grwesome to me.

That's easy.

In German, the umlaut letters ä, ü and ö are transliterated for other languages (and for the purpose of crosswords and back in the days of telex) as ae, oe and ue.

Thus the word Müsli is written out Muesli. (The umlaut and -li suffix are the diminuitive form. The original word is Mus - which is just mush.)

Suède on the other hand is the French word for "Swedish". As "W" is not an accepted letter in the French alphabet, it transmutes to "u". So this combination of "ue" has a completely different origin.

The pronunciation, - sorry I forgot.

The nearest I can get to the pronunciation of Müsli in German is : Myooslee. However, the "y" is not pronounced, the vowel "ü" is not a diphthong, but like the French vowel "u" as in "temps perdu"

Suède is pronounced swed, but the "e" is long-drawn out.

(While the acute accent shortens the "e" in French, to be pronounced with the lips pulled back in a false grin, the accent grave .. the one in suède .. ... causes the pronunciation to be more elongated and with the mouth open in an "o" and not in a horizontal line.)