A Conversation for What if...?
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What if... breeding was licenced?
Hoovooloo Started conversation Mar 6, 2008
In the words of Keanu Reeves "You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any [expletive deleted] be a father."
What if they didn't?
What if every child, male and female, at birth, as a legal requirement, was sterilised, that sterilisation only to be reversed at a later date after the person gets a licence?
On one level it sounds like a nice idea, because then you could guarantee that practically every child born was wanted and loved by parents who knew exactly what they were getting themselves into - or near enough at least. You could set the licence requirements at a level that excluded the destitute, the illiterate, the feckless and the dangerously stupid, not to mention those at risk of passing on congenital defects.
However, the degree of intrusion into the life of the individual by the state required would be oppressive in the extreme. You'd also need an effective world government, because any country that took this step unilaterally would be swamped with immigrants inside a decade and the whole thing would be pointless. It would have to be a whole-world regime or nothing.
If it were licenced...
The birth rate would probably plummet. Or at least the gene pool would plummet, because if you were in charge of handing out licences to breed, you wouldn't give them out to just any Tom or Harry, and only to the very best Dicks. You could maintain the birthrate by paying incredibly intelligent healthy women to give birth lots of times from the donor semen from just a few Olympian geniuses.
Those kids could then potentially be put up for adoption by couples denied a licence for their own kids but allowed to be carers. Every kid would be wanted and loved.
In some ways, to us, it seems abhorrent, but to those involved, especially the kids, it would be fantastic.
Any other thoughts?
What if... breeding was licenced?
Br Robyn Hoode - Navo - complete with theme tune Posted Mar 6, 2008
Just a couple of things (and discussing this as an arbitrary thought, I am not suggesting whether or not I think it's a good idea!)
Firstly, who watches the watchers?
Secondly, I would say that most people *should* be allowed children, and that licences would not be given to the lower minorities of people who are incapable of even having a chance of giving a child a good life.
It really depends on what you're licencing against: Bad genes or bad parenting?
What if... breeding was licenced?
Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk Posted Mar 6, 2008
It has it's good points as an idea, but it would never work. Apart from anything else, how would it be funded? It would cost money to run the system, and it's limited in government as it is.
Licenses are generally paid for, but who has the right to take that kind of power on themselves? You'd run the risk of childbirth becoming a profit-making exercise rather than a society-benifiting one: think of the fuss we get about speed cameras.
What if... breeding was licenced?
loonycat - run out of fizz Posted Mar 6, 2008
It would limit the gene pool, wouldn't guarantee that children were born out of love still and who are these people who grant the licences? Wee bit too much control...
What if... breeding was licenced?
Turlough's Terrier Posted Mar 6, 2008
One downside could be making hip displaysia as common in humans as it is in German Shepherds, or haemophilia as common as it is among European royalty.
What if... breeding was licenced?
Hoovooloo Posted Mar 7, 2008
Nah, inbreeding wouldn't necessarily be a problem, unless and until you're SEVERELY restricting breeding.
I was thinking of maintaining something like the birthrate we have here in the UK, but altering to whom it happens. Then again, that does rather imply that those doing the breeding would have to do a LOT of it, and if they're the kind of people you want pregnant, they're hardly likely to be the kind of people who want to spend half their life pregnant...
What if... breeding was licenced?
Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk Posted Mar 7, 2008
"if they're the kind of people you want pregnant, they're hardly likely to be the kind of people who want to spend half their life pregnant.."
The main problem with the current status quo, and licensing would only disincline the 'right people' from bothering with children.
What if... breeding was licenced?
Hoovooloo Posted Mar 7, 2008
I disagree. In a licenced breeding paradigm, having children would become a status symbol. Being pregnant or pushing a pram would be public proof you're someone whose genetic makeup society regards as a "keeper". I think you'd be more likely to see rich people trying to bribe their way onto the list if they couldn't get there without doing.
Bear in mind also, I suppose, that having kids is a basic biological need for women. (It's not for men. The only basic biological need for men is getting your rocks off. This is in no way instinctively connected with the actual business of having children, not for men. Sure we understand the connection intellectually, but the only actual DRIVE we have is to insert tab A into slot B, withdraw, repeat. And that drive would be perfectly satisfied if we were all sterile.)
What if... breeding was licenced?
Alfster Posted Mar 7, 2008
Some government bod yesterday said that very soon demand for food would soon outstrip supply. The world populatin will be 9billion by 2050, CHina and Indian becoaming more affluent will mean they will be eating more.
If breeding was licenced it would certainly lead some way to control this growth.
And sorry to bring in religion so soon but how would we persaude the Catholic church to buy into this. Licencing will mean obligatory contraception for those not allowed to breed or sterilisation etc.
Of course, on the food matter(ot to cause thread creep) if the Catholic Church did away with the every sperm is sacred dogma we could reduce the increase in population by a long way.
What if... breeding was licenced?
Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk Posted Mar 7, 2008
Are we talking the whole world, or just Britain? It raises big questions of national sovereignty. I can imagine 99.9% of some African countries being judged as incapable of financially supporting a child before the laziest Scally in Britain...
What if... breeding was licenced?
Hoovooloo Posted Mar 7, 2008
Read the first post again:
"You'd also need an effective world government, because any country that took this step unilaterally would be swamped with immigrants inside a decade and the whole thing would be pointless. It would have to be a whole-world regime or nothing."
What if... breeding was licenced?
Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk Posted Mar 7, 2008
I didn't take that as fixed, partly for the reasons I've already mentioned and partly because I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion. People didn't flock to China when they restricted childbirth, and many insist that we're already being inundated by immigrants in this country...
What if... breeding was licenced?
Hoovooloo Posted Mar 7, 2008
People didn't flock to China because the average standard of living there wasn't high enough to make it attractive, plus, you don't start flocking there when the restrictions *start*, you start flocking there when the restrictions start to have an *effect* - and that takes decades.
And strangely enough, after decades of the one-child policy, what do we find? China resurgent economically, and predicted as the next financial superpower. And what's their response? They're considering repealing the one-child rule. Why? Because if they don't, they'll be overrun, likely.
What if... breeding was licenced?
Feisor - -0- Generix I made it back - sortof ... Posted Mar 8, 2008
Perhaps not so much a "license to breed" as a "license to raise children" would be a good idea - much like a "license to drive"
Anyone could apply but would have to have undertaken training and education to prove that they understand the rules and responsibilities. Anyone can learn to drive but there's more required to own a car (financial commitment for a start) - thus, if you proved that you were responsible enough to raise children but couldn't afford it yet, you could still act as a carer because you had a license, but, until you proved that you could provide for them you would not be allowed to actually produce children.
Any violation of the rules would mean that you lost your license and the state would appoint a licensed carer.
Make it harder to have children and they might become more valued.
What if... breeding was licenced?
Br Robyn Hoode - Navo - complete with theme tune Posted Mar 8, 2008
I think you also have to take into account the emotional and environmental pressures on young people if they are such a comodity and a relative status symbol and rarity.
I think we need the wide variety of people we have and without freedom I think we lose a decent society, plus we'd lose important groups like artists, we'd lose skills that didn't make money.
Without freedom we wouldn't have people like Banksy and lots of musical commentators on social issues etc.
Has anyone SEEN demolition man with sly stallone??
What if... breeding was licenced?
HonestIago Posted Mar 10, 2008
I think the problem with this is that bad parents doesn't always equal bad kids. In a lot of cases it does, but there are kids out there with really crappy parents who turn out really nice.
Plus it'd limit the gene pool and a few generations down the line there might be real issues with in-breeding etc.
Finally, humans shouldn't be allowed to play God - heck, God isn't allowed to play God which is why he doesn't exist - we don't have the right to enforce something like this.
What if... breeding was licenced?
Br Robyn Hoode - Navo - complete with theme tune Posted Mar 10, 2008
However, while it's all very well to say bad parents doesn't always = bad kids, I think it would be fair to say the odds are very much in favour of it being the case more often than not. In fact I'd suggest a huge majority. Plus, those who turn out to be 'nice' are probably still going to have had plenty of problems inflicted on them by those 'bad' parents. It's incredible what feeling rejected and unloved by your parents can make you think about yourself or drive you to do with the wrong triggers... Even if you are a basically good person.
I'm not advocating these controls mind, just saying that a few 'nice despites' isn't a good enough argument against hundreds of thousands of families passing on awful attitudes about self and others.
What if... breeding was licenced?
pedro Posted Mar 10, 2008
Well, the most economically efficient way to structure the licencing procedure would be to create a market.
We could figure out the replacement birthrate (or adjust it to suit our social engineering ends), and then give tradable permits out. So, the replacement birthrate is 2.1 births per adult. Each women would be given govt permits to have 2.1 babies, and could buy or sell permits depending on how many babies she wanted to have. Permits could be traded in multiples of 0.1 babies. We would have to desired effect of limiting population growth with minimum govt interference. The market price for baby permits could be on the News at Ten, etc.*
Of course, effective contraception would be a necessity, and purchasing power would have to be taken into account so that rich Westerners couldn't buy up all the permits. I'm not sure what babies dying would mean in terms of using up your permits, but you could that if they were below 18 then the mother would get a replacement permit.
*It would be really interesting to find out what rising baby prices would indicate about the economy, and vice versa.
What if... breeding was licenced?
HonestIago Posted Mar 10, 2008
>>just saying that a few 'nice despites' isn't a good enough argument against hundreds of thousands of families passing on awful attitudes about self and others<<
Since I'm one of those "nice despites" I'm obviously inclined to disagree
But everything else in your post is spot on.
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What if... breeding was licenced?
- 1: Hoovooloo (Mar 6, 2008)
- 2: Hoovooloo (Mar 6, 2008)
- 3: Br Robyn Hoode - Navo - complete with theme tune (Mar 6, 2008)
- 4: Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk (Mar 6, 2008)
- 5: loonycat - run out of fizz (Mar 6, 2008)
- 6: Turlough's Terrier (Mar 6, 2008)
- 7: Hoovooloo (Mar 7, 2008)
- 8: Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk (Mar 7, 2008)
- 9: Hoovooloo (Mar 7, 2008)
- 10: Alfster (Mar 7, 2008)
- 11: Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk (Mar 7, 2008)
- 12: Hoovooloo (Mar 7, 2008)
- 13: Just Bob aka Robert Thompson, plugging my film blog cinemainferno-blog.blogspot.co.uk (Mar 7, 2008)
- 14: Hoovooloo (Mar 7, 2008)
- 15: Feisor - -0- Generix I made it back - sortof ... (Mar 8, 2008)
- 16: Br Robyn Hoode - Navo - complete with theme tune (Mar 8, 2008)
- 17: HonestIago (Mar 10, 2008)
- 18: Br Robyn Hoode - Navo - complete with theme tune (Mar 10, 2008)
- 19: pedro (Mar 10, 2008)
- 20: HonestIago (Mar 10, 2008)
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