h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Is it worth carring on with the two different forums?

A few people are submitting work into PR because they have got fed up with EGWW because it is pretty dead compared with PR.

A lot of entries we see in PR seem to have come out of the EGWW and then have to get totally rewritten to pass through PR.

Wouldn't it be more user friendly to do way with the 'requirement' that all PR entries should be ready, in the resercher's opinion, to go to the front page and put the two forums together. This would mean that entries will not stagnate in EGWW and put off prospective reserchers.

Reviewers in PR are under no obligation to help out the entries that would have been sent to EGWW, so it is not really inconviencing them. In fact, considering some of the entries that come out of EGWW, it would improve the process since entries are got right the first time.

My post about this from the other thread:

I don't agree that mixing EGWW into PR is a good idea, sorry. I get put off commenting in PR as it is when there are lots of errors, most of which are spelling and grammar that ought to be sorted before it gets submitted. A few is fine, but some of these entries are barely readable and it certainly puts me off. Yesterday I commented in PR for the first time in at least a month, but I picked entries that a) sounded interesting and b) were by experienced, top-shelf writers (laconian and GB).

I admire anyone who has more patience than me for the entries needing a lot of work, but I really think mixing the two will put people off.

I understand you well, Elentari, but I think Jon has a point: we don't have to peer review entries that are in a bad shape. As it is, we do have some researchers who submit their less than 'near complete' work to PR anyway, where it then stays for weeks on end. Some come from the EGWW after they haven't had any or only little help there.

You're right, but even though we don't have to read them, I think people will get tired of opening entries to review only to find dozens of things that need changing. Even if they go no further with that entry, they won't like it. It's just my , I'd like to hear what other people think.

Maybe I should wait until autumn before saying this (maybe we'll have an influx of entries...), but it seems to me that given the low count we've got now, concentrating what little *is* there into one forum might make sure everything gets the attention it needs. PR has always been the forum of greatest activity.

But as I said, one shouldn't make a judgement in the summer about decisions that will affect the rest of the year.

Hmm, that is a good point. It may well be that the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I'd be wary of combining the two. The difference between the EGWW and the Update Forum and University projects is that the latter two fit the idea that PR is for 'completed' Entries only. Submitting them there doesn't create an extra job for Scouts; they are effectively in there for review only, they don't have to be picked and only a few updates would need to be cleared out.

PR is run by the Scouts. If you widen the role of PR to include EGWW submissions, then you're also widening the role of the Scouts - not just to review, comment on and pick incomplete Entries, but also to clear out the proportion that will inevitably be abandoned. If the Scouts are happy to take on the extra responsibility, than that's fine; if I were still a Scout, though, I'd be a bit irked at being asked to do that as well. As I said before, it's really one for the Scouts.

I don't think combining these forums is the answer. There have only been three Entries commented on in the last week (and one of those is poor Bob Stafford talking to himself), and there are over twice as many Entries in there than there are in PR at the moment. Bemoan the state of the queue all you like, but there is clearly a source of Entries and new writers that isn't being tapped. The only reason the EGWW isn't working is because no-one is reading or commenting there. Seems to me that actually using the EGWW would be better than just getting rid of it.

The two people who I, on briefly glancing through EGWW, see useing it mainly who's entires normally make it into PR are Bob and opti.

Opti's entries always get completly re-written in PR and Bob's entry's still get a bit of polishing.

If they get worked this much in PR, then what is the point of sending them to EGWW in the first place?

(this is one place where being w*k* would be useful, because I have no idea what these entries that I see in PR look like when they first arrive in EGWW)

>If they get worked this much in PR, then what is the point of sending them to EGWW in the first place?<

The two Researcher's in question have been sending their work to the EGWW at the bequest of senior Peer Reviewers, to try and iron out all the creases before entering PR. A good plan, it has worked with some users in gettingwork up to par before it's 'mauled' in PR - thus softening the blow somewhat.

I still think the EGWW is a great platform for the new user of h2g2 to test their writing for the EG (and some of he older one's too...). Ufortunately, the main problem is that the EGWW just doesn' get the trafic it needs, perhaps due to the standard in there, and that Scouts and other Reviewers feel it is a bit too much like hard work to review something in the EGWW then again in PR - which in som cases it is.

I don't like to name names, but evidence has shown that some Researchers learn fom experience and submit better work. Others just carry on regardless - the EGWW not making itslef any use whatsoever as a 'proving ground'.

I think it's important to highlight the EGWW as the first place to submit something as a new potential writer for the Edited Guide, then work your way into PR. However, in the fast paced, I want it done now type of environment we use information in - the lengthy process of a week in the EGWW then a week in PR before even more time subbing before releasing on the Front Page doesn't really appeal to many of the newer computer generation.

And that's why h2g2 is all the better for stringent reviewing though.

Ah, can we all say Catch 22?

On the front page of EGWW there are seventeen different writers, eight of whom have never had an EG Entry and a further two who have only had one on the Front Page, so it's not just two Researchers. I think it's just underused, and seen as a dumping ground for submissions that need a lot of work - it's much easier to suggest moving an Entry there than to follow it up and help the writer get it into shape. If reviewers aren't willing to do that, will they if the same Entry is in PR? Or will those Entries still get largely ignored?

Unfortunately, I think he Entries will get ignored. Some people may see a particular Researcher and ignore their work, some people will read an Entry that is confused and gabled and won't bother trying to assist in making it readable...you're right - it can be a dumping ground. But then, so can PR sometimes. There will ALWAYS be inapporpriate or unfinshed work put into h2g2 in the 'wrong' place. That's where we can all help to either refine or assist these authors into getting their work and ideas noticed, or moved back to Entry.

Perhaps what we really need is some sort of MineSweeper role for the EGWW to clear it out. Some of the Entries could go back to Entry, or to the Flea Market where they could be picked up and made into something more. It seems sad that the EGWW could be a wealth of fun and information for the EG, but is not utilised all that well.

I'd be happy to try and clear it out (with Editorial help - I'll find the Entries that could go back o Entry or the Flea Market, and they can move them).

That way it might open up the EGWW into something more current, rather than the junkyard it apppears to be at present, with only a few little sparkling gems at the top of the heap.

I'd be happy to help you out with that, Matt, if the Eds give the go-ahead *nudge, nudge* I've recommended the odd move in my time...

I'm on the case at the mo...

Will post a thread to EF with lists of Flea Marketable EWntries, and one's that just need returning to Entry

Here's the list as it stands. F47997?thread=4459965

I'm moving backwards through the EGWW using the same rules that apply in PR for Flea Market Entries

And here's the list of one's to go Back to Entry F47997?thread=4460387

I really liked the EGWW when it was working well. It'd be good if it got more promotion, perhaps as a more (newbie) friendly place (as opposed to the bear pit that PR can be) where writers can be encouraged and supported.

I think Italic involvement of some kind is important (and I know there are time limits there). I seem to remember the Eds making the EGWW more visible* a year or so ago and it got busier then for a while.

(* was that a name change and link off the FP?)

I think the big problem is the general malaise about the EG itself. I unsubbed from the EGWW and various EG pages some time ago because I'm feeling jaded about the whole thing. I don't want to go into that, and I don't want to bring any downer energy into this conversation, but I do think that the underlying problem is the lack of people interested in the EG, and that solutions lie with getting more people involved.

I like what the Eds have been doing with the FP this year, introducing new things and having a good focus there. Maybe there could be a period of time where there was some emphasis on the EGWW and getting more people more involved.

The thing is, when I worked on h2g2, we combined the Writing Workshop and Collaborative Writing Workshop because we felt that that the whole process is collaborative and also hoped that it might encourage collaboration. Many people told us they'd really depended on the Writing Workshops when they started writing, and it was a good place to go if you had a basic idea but no clue how to perfect it.

I don't believe that PR should become a workshop - it should be for tidying up, not writing from scratch (although some people have been VERY cheeky on that score in the past). I'm not too worried if the EWW isn't busy though. I think it's just important that it's there for those people who might need a little help with their writing. It's better to have it and not be used much than not have it at all.

If all fruit were apples we would get sick of the taste of apples eventually, and so too if all flowers were roses we would have nothing else to compare them with.

A comedian has to be on his toes to better the last comedian on the stage, so it is no contest and very boring if all comedians told the same joke all the time if'n y'all gets mah drift. :0) Salut en at! T