h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Erm, it's not all "Whizzo" magazine stuff is it?
Perhaps a bit of balance by mentioning the Gibraltar incident or the possible collusions with the UVF overe the years might not have been "beyond the scope" of this article?

Yeppers it is 'dont mention the north'. Becuase it causes more problems than it solves. I didnt add that little bit about Ulster the editor did. However Ulster is a huge Article in itself. Gibraltar yes, Loughall yes, and numerous other mistakes and problems. I try to stay out of Arguements like these, becuase one side are as bad as the other.

IRA ASU killed by the British Army - Exuceted by the British Army.

British Soldiers killed by the IRA - Murdered by the IRA.

Anybody notice a correlation here?

The fact is Ulster is a Cluster Fudge and a half. IRA knee capping Informers, SAS troopers shooting Innocents, UVF going into a Pub killing innocent catholics, INLA killing Lord Mountbatten.

There is no solution to Ulster, except help them sort out there differences. You give me one example of IRA Brutality, I'll give you one of the UVF. You give me an example of SAS Brutailty and I give you one of the INLA.

This article wasnt about Ulster, and never will be. However if you want to make a statemnet, or and arguement about it, put it into an article. Either that or F**k off.

"Perhaps a bit of balance" a bit of balance is not to mention it at all. If I wanted to write an article about the Artcities of Ulster, it would be huge, and would take alot more than one researcher.

Also is there anby proof on these supposed Collusions? Personally I think that any collusions between the SAS and the amateur UVF are u likely to say the least.

Calm down boys. The Gibraltar thing was a major cock-up on all sides.
I'll say this, though: anyone who joins an organisation which has as its main aim the changing of democratic process through violence (much of which has claimed the lives of innocent bystanders, let us not forget, several of which were small children) can expect to die violently. It's ok for kids to be shot and blown up "by mistake" and then the perpertrators to apologise, well both sides can make "mistakes" end of story. Life isn't fair!!

Firstly, I'm not saying it isn't a minefield....of course it is, but just ignoring it or even adding a caveat like that isn't good enough.
Secondly, I don't think that swearing at someone is a constructive way to formulate an argument - but perhaps I am unfashionable in that belief.
Thirdly, I'm definitely not taking sides here. I am a British passport holder and often proud to be so. I'm not into apportioning blame and indeed think that a definitive article shouldn't seek to apportion blame. However, I think it is worth mentioning Gibraltar in this article.

Oh yeah, and while we are at it. Gibraltar wasnt so much of a cock up, as an Pre emptive strike. All the intelligence pointed towards another bomb which killed 25 soldiers of the Light Infantry happening in Gibratltar. Lets not forget that the people were killed were Terrorists an ASU of the IRA, or Soldiers, Freedom Fighters or whatever. They chose use Violence to accomplish their means fair enough. They took the Soldiers chance.

Would it have been acceptable to kill them after the bomb had gone off? The troopers were aqquitted, as the terrorist were making moves that could have been mistaken by anyone to be a hostile act, which to any highly trained SAS trooper could signal death to them.

While we on the subject of Brutality, how about the undercover SAS trooper, who was assualted, tortured, interrogated and then killed, and have his body never recovered?

Ulster is sooo complex, with its and Irelands history dating back a thousand years. You cant add a bit of balance, without adding all of it. And to add all of it, to an short (yes Short, considering that there is much, much more conflicts which the SAS were and are involved in) history of the SAS.

As opposed to 'Feck'. It aint a swear word. However I do start to get very angry, when people start to talk about Ulster. Mates have been killed there, and half my family is Irish Catholic to boot. So sue me, if I dont particulary want to drag up the history of a worn torn province. Like I said, if you want to add 'balance' do the article yourself.

Ironically I'm listening to Zombie - Cranberries, @ the mo.

So by that rationale, that which is complicated and would take an article in itself to explain can be ommited?
Its a passionate subject, so I'll let it go but, just to reiterate, my problem was not with what was in the article but that it is now in "the definitive guide" as is - but this thread has balanced that much, and there are other sources of information available.

I think it is a Good Article.... To be honist there has to much detail to write about Ulster you'd never fit in a article, he may as write a book, about being different Sources of info well that is True but every source has its own views and etc... So no book is purely Right to be honist and even details given from events are from only peoples Perception of the Situation. Ulster Is a sad event in its self..... but it is made up of many Acts of Murder/Killings from both the Terrorist/Freedom fighter's as buy the British Soldiers. Although all the killing is Stupid and maybe it may help is the so called 'Freedom Fighters' did not go killing 'Innocent' Civilians. Tell me the point of the Bombing of Pubs pls. I think that there is no point in goin into something in such details which gives a point of view... Is Anxer went into Ulster u would of found something to moan and remember there is still alot of Tension in Iriland and Ulster and he would of got alot of Hate Mail/Postings if he had gone into that. Ireland and Ulster ain't finished with yet but If God has any Mercy he will end it now.

Actually, on reflection (sorry Duncan) I think Gibraltar should be mentioned - if not only because it shows what happen when you attempt to "mess with" the SAS.
And not forgetting this (bitter pill as it is to swallow): one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist (we only have to look at Nelson Mandela to see the sense in that one!)

I also think Gobralter should be mentioned: I have no idea what happened so a bit of education is required!

On reflection, when I subbed this yarn I should have included a definition of the term "Potted History".

A potted history is a selected history. In a selected history you omit some things and, perhaps, make other events appear more important than they really were.

Anxer, if you want to write a couple of paragraphs about Gibralter, and post them in this forum, I am sure when the h2g2 editors have a look at the forums in the morning (as they always do with articles featuring on the front page) they will add them to your article.

Talking about articles, that is what this is. War And Peace, it is not - though some of the forums are sure heading that way.

A message to the h2g2 editors from the articles's author, Anxer (It was posted on my page because I was the sub for the yarn)

Hi, My Edited article SAS - A potted history, can you change Operation Avenger to Operation Wallace, and change (D-Day) to Post D-Day Landings. Cheers.

All changed - thanks everyone

Right, here is a bit about Gibraltar.
Tell me what you think. If its good enough to piut in as is, please do so. If not can somebody give som advice to change it.

In the trouble province of Ulster, there have been two very notable operations against the Provisional IRA. The first was an affair in Gibraltar. 25 soldiers of the Light Infantry Regiment were killed when a coach exploded. British Intelligence suspected that the Active Service Unit (ASU), of the Provisional IRA, which was though to have carried out the above bombing, would try to explode a bomb in British owned Gibraltar.

The Security services tracked the ASU, all the way to Gibraltar. The SAS were called in, to apprehend the ASU. The 3 members of the ASU, 2 men and a woman, who were walking, on a street, were ordered to surrender, by the SAS troopers who had ambushed them. The terrorists then made moves, as if to bring weapons to bear, or detonate a bomb. The SAS opened fire, and all 3 were killed. Later it was discovered that the members of the ASU were unarmed, and not one carried a detonator. An inquiry was launched to discover whether any procedures weren't followed, and if any blame could be apportioned. The SAS troopers involved were acquitted.

The second operation was in South Armagh. Intelligence had discovered that an ASU, behind the recent bombings of RUC stations in the province, were to attack the RUC station in Loughhall. The SAS laid in wait, preparing to ambush the terrorists.

A JCB with a man in a Balaclava and a boiler suit drove up to the station, followed by a blue van with the rest of the ASU inside it. The JCB swerved into the station, and then the SAS started firing. The Bomb present in the JCB (it was in the scooper bucket) exploded, which would have caused problems for the SAS troopers present inside the station, but they were protect by bomb shields and body armour. All the terrorists were killed. Since the road couldn't be closed, due to it alerting the IRA, a car drove past. Very regrettably, the SAS troopers mistook the two brothers, to be members of the IRA. They opened fire, killing one of the brothers, and seriously injuring the other.

There have been many operations in Ulster and it was against the Author's wishes to post about the SAS actions in Ulster, people's ignorance of this province has compelled me to do so. The Author mentioned these two operations, because they were famous, or infamous. This is no way intended an article of Ulster, is never going to be. The Author at present holds no judgement in the situation in Ulster.

I second the inclusion of all of the above.
Thanks
<>====uuu====<

I think the Gibraltar thing should be included, but not the JCB one. Gibraltar was very famous, but the other didn't attract so much publicity.
It has to be said that when taking part in any action of this type (the JCB thing) it is easy to get, how shall I say this, carried away. I know from experience (firing blanks on exercise) that you do get caught up in these things. If I hear a car backfire nowadays, it's all I can do to stop myself jumping behind the nearest wall. And I was never involved in a live incident like this.
The ASU in Gib put their hands inside their jackets, it could be argued (and since they all died nobody can be sure) that they were going to show their passports. But: if you were told by a man with a gun, and lots of mates with guns, to lie down and keep still what is the reaction of a "normal" "innocent" person? Not, I suspect, to put your hand inside your jacket.

Similarly, if you heard a fairly large bomb go off (and trust me, you would hear it) plus the gunfire involved in killing a number of "terrorists" driving your car past the place where this is going on is not the action of a sane and rational person. This is very hard on everyone, not least the guy who shot the kids. But we're very quick to judge. And, as the saying goes, it's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

PS. Like the spear.

I think that bit should be included too.

Not in the least bit bitter are we Anxer?

Witnesses In SAS Case Take Stand
07:43AM Wed Oct 25 2000 NZDT
IRN News
The first of the witnesses in a case brought by the British Government against a former SAS soldier will begin giving evidence at the High Court in Auckland this morning.

The New Zealander has written a book detailing his time behind Iraqi lines during the Gulf War

Writing under the pseudonym of Mike Coburn, the former soldier tells what happened when his patrol went on a botched mission to sabotage Iraqi scud missile sites in January 1991.

The British Ministry of Defence is arguing that publication of the manuscript breaches the former soldier's confidentiality agreement.

Yesterday Justice Salmond suppressed all details of British SAS soldiers who will now give evidence behind screens.

It does seem a bit "silly" to go through all the selection process, training, signing of the Official Secrets Act - all the while having it drummed into you that this is all secret and that dire consequences would follow were any of this to be revealed to the wider public - and then to be surprised when HM Govt takes action against those who breach this confidentiality. I know full well that, despite being a very tiny cog in the machinery a fairly long time ago, that if I go into specifics about what I did I would be subject to the full force of the treason laws. And all I did was sit around all day drinking coffee using top secret documents as coasters! Oops, now that's slipped out, I'll have to kill you all
But seriously, why all the fuss? They're employed as a secret agent. They leave the service, and now they want to impress girls or something by blabbing it all around? They should grow up, and take the consequences of their actions. Big girls' blouses!
(If I remember rightly, Treason was the one offence for which the death penalty still applies in GB - is this correct?)

I think treason and sedition carry the death penalty but that it is not able to be used for some reason.
In defence of the right to break the official secrets act - every industry needs its whistleblowers just to keep it on the straight and narrow.
That said - I ahven't read the book, so will restrict my comment to that generalisation.

Actually, I agree with you about the whistleblowers. But most of these people (and I include that Mr. Shayler in this) just want to make a quick buck. I don't notice any of the SAS jumping forward to write in a book the complete and unabridged SAS version (unofficial bootleg copy if you like) of what happened on Gibraltar - probably mostly because the SAS didn't come out of it too well, and it wouldn't have been a bestseller. Also, maybe, because in "those days" it wasn't the done thing.
But (as you have noticed) it really makes my blood boil to see people breaking the OSA just because they feel like it (and the cash comes rolling in) and not because they have uncovered some heinous crime against humanity that was covered up. After all, nobody gets into that kind of job unless they're over 18, and old enough to think these things through (supposedly).