h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Mormon Myths? Give me a break!

Polygamy: While it is true that the Mormon Church "denounced" polygamy in the late 19th century Mormon leaders were still practicing polygamy well into the first part of the twentieth century. It is also true that polygamy is an integral part of the Mormon faith and is not so much denounced as suspended until better times allow them to take it up again and have many wives just like the god they worship.

Fundamentalist: Surely fundamentalists deserve more respect than to be simply dismissed as rejects and droputs. For the most part they are simply trying to adhere to the fundamentals of the faith (including polygamy) as was taught by all the early Mormon Church leaders. The modern Salt Lake City-based church might be accused by these folk of betraying the traditional faith of Mormonism's founding fathers, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. While I understand that the 10 million strong Mormon Church with which we are familiar might want to disassociate itself from fundamentalists it would be good to remember that they both have the same roots.

Bible & Book of Mormon - and Apocrypha?: You must be kidding! The Bible, in Mormonism is a suspect book and is only believed in those parts where it appears to agree with Mormonism. The 8th Mormon article of faith states "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God". Note the qualifiction for the Bible that does not apply to the Book of Mormon. In the Protestant Christian faith the Apocrypha is not regarded as Scripture. In Mormonism the Book of Mormon is regarded as more reliable than the Bible. This is, therefore, a misleading comparison.

Same Jesus?: The Mormon President, Gordon B Hinckley officially declared recently that Mormons worship a different Jesus to the rest of us. Work that out.

Secret Name: No one will talk about it because it is secret. That is why it is called a secret name. Everything about the Mormon temple ceremony is secret (Mormons say sacred but come on! If you won't talk about it that is secret. If you doubt that go out and buy a good dictionary and look up secret for goddness sake.) My "secret" name was Jacob. Not much of a secret when you think about it. When you leave the Mormon Church, not talking about your secret name might well mean hanging onto something that will hang on to you. Telling may well be cathartic. Letting go of secrets is all part of growing up in this crazy mixed up galaxy - especially the psychotic human sector.

Thank you Dr. Science. It's nice to see that paranoia and mistrust of everything you don't understand is still alive and well in this day and age.

Just because your paranoid doesn't mean their not out to get you. Personally I have no trouble trusting that which I find to be trustworthy. So far as not understanding is concerned, well, isn't that what they all say? Frankly I am not interested in the tired old stock phrases every Mormon drags out in defense of the indefensible. I simply wanted to bring an alternative, nearer to the truth, perspective to an interesting subject. I am sorry if in some eyes openness is paranoia, honest investigation is persecution, and alternative views and understandings ignorance.

"Those who can make us believe absurdities can also make us commit atrocities" (Voltaire)

Mike Tea

Hmmm, I'd have to agree with Mike Tea presenting an alternate view point... as with shallow 15 (ironic isn't it), just what exactly does this person not understand...
If ever you wish to be respected shallow, be silent... it is a wiser option as you have so clearly demonstrated.

vox faucibus haesit [Vergil]

Okay, I'll admit I went too far with my last comment. I want to go on record here as saying that Mike did have some good points about the Mormon church trotting out the same old tired cliches every time it gets attacked.

I myself am an ex-Mormon, and the main reason I made the comments I did was mostly as a knee jerk reaction to the anti-Mormon views placed, for the main reason that, here in Utah, the anti-Mormon faction is just as fanatical as the members of the church. They're BOTH nuts out here.

In any event, I apologize for my misguided comments, Mike.

Just a question regarding fundamentalist Mormons: Isn't it also true, following the same line of reasoning, that Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Baptists are all fundamentalist Catholics just trying to adhere to the basics of the faith in the belief the Catholic church is betraying the traditional faith?

Apology accepted, Shallow 15. Now that I know where you are coming from I can see that we would likely agree more than disagree. I am not in Utah, or indeed the USA, but Wales. You know, the lump tacked onto the left of England. Coming from a Welsh background I do find some of the antics of anti-Mormon groups in the States rather bizarre ( for that matter some Christian groups in general!). Having said that, I have found plenty of good honest ministries and churches out there who do a great job. I am involved in ministry to folks in the cults and often I have been accused of being an undercover Mormon or something because I seem to spend much of my time correcting common misconceptions about Mormonism. My favourite one is the brainwashing tag. When people say that Mormons are brainwashed what they mainly mean is that because they don't think like me they must be brainwashed. Of course Mormons are deceived in many ways but they are perfectly capable of using their own brainboxes given the chance and encouragement. I just had to write, however, and say that what was presented on the guide are not necessarily misconcenptions, or myths, but embarrassing episodes in Mormon history, and even current Mormon belief, that church members would rather people didn't know about.

So far as Methodists etc. simply being Catholic fundamentalists, well there may be something in that. There is another misconception, common to many traditions but certainly found amongst Mormons, that the Roman Church came into being in the first 2 or 3 centuries after Christ. This is simply not so. That church, as we would recognise it, did not exist until about the 10th or 11th century, and it might be argued that reforming chuches are simply attempts to get back to an earlier, purer doctrine. Of course we would be deluded to think, as Mormons do, that there is some kind of New Testament blueprint which, if followed guarantees success. But there are valuable lessons to be learned from a correct understanding of history.

The thing about Mormonism that gets me is that, having spent most of its time in existence disparaging Christian Churches in their literature, they recently have found reasons to try and align themselves with evangelical Christians. In the UK they are actually declaring themselves to be "a Chrstian denomination". Having been a Mormon myself for many years, in what seems now to have been a former life, I stand all amazed at a church that has so decried denominationalism embracing it. I am simpy jealous for my Christian faith and want to say that if you want to stand with me at least be honest about what you believe. Otherwise you provoke the more extreme ministries that we should all avoid simply by exasperating people.

Mike Tea

I am a non mormon born and raised in SLC UT. I have been a member of one of those crazy anti-mormon groups that attacks without thought. I am not proud of that. However, from a young age I was treated different for being something other than LDS. I grew up hated in some circles because my father walked out of the faith. My family is not recognized by my fathers siblings, save the one LDS bishop. I have an aunt that for years tried to get myself and my sister into her faith. I tolerated it when I was 5 as I did not know any better, now I will not stand for it. I try to limit the influence she has on my other cousins and family because she is interfereing with my cousins ability to raise their children. In years past I was vehemently ani-mormon to the point of idiocy. I had to grow up enough to realize that my theological differences are separate from my personal morals and circle of friends. Two of my best friends are returned missionaries that are very active in their faiths. They, more than anyone else, have taught me that not all mormons are evil cretures and that they are not all like my aunt. I am a Presbyterian in SLC, my church was founded in 1852 five years after Brigham Young came to the valley. There were many people in the session of elders in my church murdered during this time, it was possibly done by the Danites, a secret group that was reputed to report directly to the first presedincy. AT one time I believed that their murders were ordered by Young, I would tell any one that just to discredit the LDS faith. I have since come to believe that I cannot make a judgment call on an event that happened 100+ years ago. While I hold many differing beliefs of the LDS tradition, and I think that the vast majority of Utah mormons are self serving, hypocritical idiots, I know that not all of them are. Looking at how my friends live their lives, doing what they believe I know that they are doing what they feel is right. I have to say that I know many LDS people that are not from Utah or the surrounding areas of heavy mormon influence. They have to work twice as hard to follow the path that they believe is the true way to their salvation. They are hard working, good people that I would rather spend time with than most of the people here in SLC. I have a theory that most of the LDS people here are that simply because of the political implications of not being mormon. This is easy for them because every one around them is the same. They still break all of their own rules and rarely bother to stop and temper their denunciations of other faiths. These people are why I dislike the faith at large. But the few returned missionaries that I know, that came back from a long time away from what they knew and away from the comfort of other people in their own faith have been made better from it. it is hard to stand up for your beliefs, especially when they are so very different than that of everyone around you. I know this from growing up here in SLC. But do not denounce the whole faith just because the few people that you know are bigoted idiots. Believe me I missed out on many friendships because I let this blind me.

I will stop ranting now, but if you have any questions for someone who is an outsider to this faith but familier with it let me know.

Marv

Thanks for the encouragement Mal.

BTW. What is "vox faucibus haesit"?

Mike

Commenting on Marv:

Thank you for this fresh view from a non-Mormon. I happen to be a Mormon, American, living in Germany, and from what I see of many of those who live in Utah, you are right. The strong Mormons who really believe in their faith and can stand up to hostility are those of us who are surrounded by it. Not that everyone out there is an anti-Mormon, the majority of those I know are non-Mormons and are very respectful of our beliefs. I resent all the anti-Mormons who spit out all the fantasies that they hear from other anti's without really knowing one way or the other. Even ex-Mormons do this. I probably would have resented you earlier from the way you describe your earlier views. I don't have a problem with people who don't agree with our views (we believe in allowing all men to worship how where or what they may), but sadly the most frequent cases seem to be the childishly hostile rants. Noone should be trying to force you to believe as we do, but it is pretty pathetic the way that some people hypocritically lash out at Mormons when we (as far as I am concerned and a very great majority of us - like 99%) don't actively try to insult them for their beliefs. I am not against other views, I am against the hostility and mudslinging that pretty much takes place one-sidedly against Mormons.

By the way Mike Tea: you claim that President Hinckley made a statement that Mormons don't believe in the same Christ as other Christians do. I would have to have a source before I believe a statement out of the blue that 'this guy' said 'that' once. I would hope that you feel the same way. If you think Mormons are gullible, stop cranking out or contributing to all the rumors you hear floating around.

I denounce the Mormon faith not because of anyones actions in within the religion. I denounce it because it is contradictory to the Bible, the complete and sovereign word of God. I will be the first to agree with you that Mormons are some of the best citizens in the communities that they live in. They set a very good example of clean, honest living. However, their beliefs are misguided. I know they are sincere about what they believe, but that doesn't change the truth. It doesn't matter how many people in this world might think that the world is flat, it is still round. There are absolute truths in this world, and we were given a free will by the God that created us. We can believe what is true, or we can believe what we were raised to believe. We can believe we came from apes. Whatever we as sinful, rebellious mankind want to believe, we are free to do so. But sadly, those who choose to reject God (by rejecting His living word to us, the Bible) will still be subject to the judgement of the same God. Whether we choose to believe it or not, the Bible is true and complete. The Mormon church has chosen to reject the Bible by claiming that it is not accurate unless translated correctly. They have challenged its authority spelled out in a very clear warning in Revelation 22:18,19 and have thus revealed themselves as followers of a false prophet - Joseph Smith.
You may not like it, but it is true.

How do you eplain Deuteronomy 2:4 which says nearly the same thing as Revelations?

I think you are refering to Deuteronomy 4:2, and you are correct, it says nearly the same thing. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." King James Version. The existence of this passage does not require explanation. Moses, having previously been the messenger of God's law, gave a warning to the Israelites, that they need to abide to the law in it's entirity, neither adding to it nor taking from it. This "warning" is also given through John in Revelation 22:18-19 to reaffirm what was said by Moses. This kind of reaffirmation is extremely common in the Scriptures, and acts to highlight the importance of the statement, as well as to add authority to it.

So in Dueteronmy the scripture only applies to Moses' words and in Revelations it applies to the entire book of the Bible. You are aware that the Bible was not "put together" until many years after the Catholic church was founded? Also King James' reason for putting it together was to standarize what scriptures were being used. One other point is that the books in the New Testament are not in chronological order. These were just writings of the early apostles that later were put into a book in a order that seemed logical at the time. This doesn't take away from the sacredness of the writings. Also in Numbers 21:14 it speaks of the Book of Wars, Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samula 1:18 speaks of the book of Jasher, 1 Kings 11:41 speaks of the book of the Acts of Solomon, 2 Chronicals 9:29 book of Nathan the Prophet..I could go on. All I am saying it that many books of scripture have been lost. If the writings (through some miriacle) were to be found, should they not be read and studied just as the bible is read and studied?

To answer your question.....NO. They can be read and studied if they are discovered, but they do NOT have the authority of the Bible. There were countless "writings" in history that have been lost. Just because the Bible makes reference to some of them in NO WAY implies that they are inspired by God, and in NO WAY implies that they would or should have been included in the Bible if they had not been lost. The fact is you have missed the point entirely! NOTHING is lost to God! Nothing! If He had intended those writings to be included in the Bible we read today, they wouldn't have been lost! No doubt about it! And that is exactly my point. Men put the words of the Bible to paper (or papyrus) but these men were inspired by God. God is the author of His Word. You are implying that the Bible was assembled through the inspiration of men, who are sinners, who are imperfect, who make mistakes. It was not. God ensured it's preservation, God inspired the men who wrote, translated and assembled the Bible, so that what we read today is EXACTLY as He has intended it to be. God does not make mistakes!! The Mormon church has made it the basis for their existence, that God made a mistake when He inspired the Bible. And that is the great fallacy of the Mormon church.

ok i have no idea how this is going to sound but i am going to say it any way i have one comment i do not disagree with talking about diffrent religons and i freacently add my own opinion and what eveyone has been writing is thire own opinions in every disscusion there is bound to be differnt opinions but that is no reson to get owly about it
so what if i happen to belive in the book of mormenand the bible dosnt not mean there is any thing wrong with me and because MrNiceGuy happens to not belive in the book of mormen but dose belive in the bible but that dose not excuse MrNiceGuy for actting like he is going to thump some one for having a differnt opinion witch happens to be legal last time i checked(the differnet opinoins not the tumping)and i'm sorry the people weather adult or not arent marture enough to discuss things without getting upset

muggs

It doesn't mean something is wrong with you if you believe the Book of Mormon is true, that is correct. It does mean that you are blindly following a religion which has misled millions(?) of people. As I have said before, God gives us the right to believe whatever we want...but believing something that is a lie does not change the truth. I can have all the faith I want that the sea is not salty, but guess what, it is still salty. All I'm doing here is just hoping to enlighten some of you, or to inspire you to check the facts yourselves, about the man who dreamed up the religion you so zealously follow. I'm not the one who is going to be doing the thumping, that authority belongs to God alone. Don't take my word for it, check the Bible.

You guys could go on and on and on...I realize this.
Instead of arguing with each other and trying to prove everything, why don't you try and work together and find the common truths in what God has shown each of you and work toward building each other up? And celebrate what 'good' things God has given us all?

I will say one thing...regardless of 'where' your beliefs come from, can you not agree that one who lives the 'truths' they learn from God AND applies them in their own life, finds love, not bitterness? If you know the bible at all, you'll know God does not teach dissention and confusion. Look to your own hearts please, and take these discussion to a better level.

I have to agree with the others about where this convesation is going. I was just asking opinions about things that are written in the Bible. I can see that this conversation is turrning into "you Mormons are all wrong and I am right". I am sorry if I offended anyone here. This will be my last posting here.

PS. I never follow anything blindly.

I'm not sure how I stumbled onto this "discussion". I had to detour from the comments just to register, so I think it is a wonder that I found my way back. However, I thought I would add my comments, which are from someone who is neither Mormon nor Christian. I have lived and worked among both Christians and Mormons, and a good many other religions as well. This includes the "sane" and the "crazy" versions of the groups. It seems to me that most religions feel that their way is the only one that is true and everyone else follows a lesser path.

If Moses said something about not adding or detracting from what was said, then wouldn't that exclude what Jesus later said? I guess I just do not understand what was being written. On the other hand, when someone writes about not adding or taking from what was written, that indicates to me that someone is trying to limit someones understanding to what was written at a certain point in time.

So the Jews had this restiction. Then Jesus came along. Many of the jews rejected what he said, but then came the Christians. They took the restiction for themselves. Along comes Mohammed, or Joseph Smith, or others. They add to what was said, but the Christians reject their words.

I think if God is so powerful and wise, that there would be multiple religions to fit the many different people and their needs. That way, they would surely be able to find some way to love and worship God.