h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Well maybe I'm mixing "ethics" up with "morality".

The reason I think that egoism in not a good ground for ethics is simple: We have no right to put ourselves higher than anyone else. You give yourself the right to judge and hurt people. Some people cause more suffering in their life than others. That is those who are egoistic.

Maybe you would say that we have no choise but to act out of selfishness. I dont know about that. But if anyone chooses to believ that, and uses it to say: "Hey, I can do pretty much whatever I want", then that person is heading down the wrong track.

Good morrow,
I am very interested in Satanism, and would class myself as a 'Satanist' but get me wrong not, I am not one of the pathetic teenage goths who wanders around trying to gain attention by doing idiotic things in the name of Satan.

I write because I am a little confuzed. Where does 'Satan' actually come into it? I know that there are many interperatations of Satan, but let's take the personification of evil for now. Satanists actually promote and execute more good than most other religions (a point to argue about, probably) so why Satan? Also, listened did I to a christian once and took up the issue on this. I listened with respect, but only one point struck a chord in my mind. Should one worship the physical Satan, he will be promised all kinds of nifty things. But, in the end, the person in question will ultimately be decieved by Satan (a trick he is famous for) and be trapped into a one way road to Hell (unless, of course, he asks God for aid). Is there anyway around this besides turning to Christianity? And is it acceptable to worship both Gods, while worshipping yourself (not being concieted, just believing yourself to be your own God).

I would appreciate if you could answer some of my questions, for I am a little unsure of myself and crave to purify my beliefs.

Ezekiel.

This is tHEME mAKER under a new name...
You asked for a real Satanist to write about these things to make sure you got it right...well..here I am...

Satanists call themselves Satanists because the over all philosophy does fit Satan...in OUR opinion.
If you look at him with Christian-tinted views...he was kicked out for being too proud...but from my point of view, the mythical
Satan was punished for being an individual...but he did it anyway. I guess God could be refered to as an opressive worldview
and Satan could embody standing up to that view and saying it is wrong whether anyone agrees or not.

One person made the comment that Satanism is not involved in magick practice...or something to that effect...like Alester Crowley.
Actually Satanism has much magick practice available for those who want it. The view is "Use it if you believe it...leave it alone
if you don't." The only difference is that magick is not attributed to mythical gods or devils...it is a completely human ability.
Magick, to a Satanist, is using one's mind and resources to effect change in your environment. Most of this is as simple as convincing someone to do something for you...this can be called magick. Other things are more...supernatural...but can be attributed to one's own mental ability. Think of magick as another form of ESP or telekinesis...same basis.

If someone wants me to start a forum where i will just answer questions about this subject...I would be more than willing...just let me know...and if someone else feels that my interpretation is wrong or that they would be more qualified to speak on it, then message me
or speak up! Later...

The satanist does not put his wants above another...not really. I believe the satanist could be said to respect self-sufficiency over all else. Now this can be quite hard to grasp and explain. A satanist does everything in their power to get the things they want in life, as long as it doesn't involve knowingly injuring someone else's life. BUT...the Satanist can also be seen as a rabid Darwinist...survival of the fittest is the only way to insure that the best is made of the species. If we keep a bunch of idiots and invalids alive and wasting air and food, then the healthy and intelegent will be strangled out. Nietzche once said that most cities are all the same (I'm paraphrasing)...they are gardens where millions of weeds are kept alive to save the few beautiful flowers mixed in. SO, a satanist does everything within his power to build his happiness, while respecting the rights of another. BUT, if that person is not intelegent enough and strong enough to take control of their life and use what they have, then the satanist is not responsible for their failure and unhappiness.

So we won't be seeing any Satanist Counsellors any time soon...?

LOL
Actually, this is only my opinion, but Satanists would probably make very good counselors. From my experience, people in the psychiatric profession do alot of unnecessary coddeling. Either that or go the other extreme and recommend everyone they see for commitment to a loony bin. If people would merely be taught to take responsibility for their own lives and actions, and be made to see that they are really responsible for their individual happiness, I think alot of people that suffer intense depression and emotional problems would be able to live more fulfilling lives. See, I think alot of the moral bullshit that people are taught and brought up with is partially responsible for the screwed up people we see today. It's like people are taught to feel guilty for being human, and there is really nothing they can do to change being human so they are stuck with it. I'm not saying that morals are wrong...morals are a basic building block of civilization...but i do think that a code that is too strict ends up choaking you to death.

I agree. This society's penchant for pointing fingers is exactly what is debilitating it. "I'm too fat because my father never loved me." "I beat my children because my mother beat me as a child." If more people stood up and took responsibility for their own behavior, the world would be a much better place. As is, it seems that everybody has a mental illness, and it's because of some traumatic experience in their childhood, and normalcy is a disappearing commodity. They need to grow up. Life is traumatic, and if you can't handle it, then put yourself out of yours and everyone else's misery.

Strangely, I never really think of life as traumatic. Yeah, bits of it are painful, and it doesn't go according to plan, but in a purposeless world, who is to say that pain is to be avoided, or that plans should be kept to?

I read somewhere (probably Playboy, where I get all my useless statistics) that 99% of people have some form of mental disorder, and the other 1% are retarded. See? Useless.

-jb

Satanism is an absurd religion, created by someone who went againdt the church just for the sake of it. He was probably one of the people most deeply affected by the turmoil and change in the sixties. If the creator of the religion actually read his book he would find that a whole philosophy has been devoted to the developement of one's self.
That philosophy is called "existentialism", and was forwarded by philosophers such as Camus and Satre.
I am also of the opinion that a religion which bases itself upon oneself is by no means a religion. A religion to me is something which helps you to unite with other people, and to get along with other people. Religion is something that provides a vocation, and not a deep feeling of guilt.
Another point: how can anyone do anything without harming antone these days? Working on ones own self is all very well, but what about the people who can't help themselves?
I think that this religion would take human advancement backwards, not forwards, as the ed result would essentially be survival of the fittest.

> "Satanism is an absurd religion"

All the best religions are absurd. Thor. Eris. Yahweh...

> "He was probably one of the
people most deeply affected by the turmoil and change in the sixties."

Which is to my mind a good thing. A lot of highly interesting stuff has come out of that 'turmoil', including a couple of my favourite books.

> "If the creator of the religion actually read his book he would
find that a whole philosophy has been devoted to the developement of one's self."

Which I think it's fairly clear that he knew about. Think of him as a populiser and marketeer, if you will. Clearly the adoption of Satan as a figurehead was a lightning stroke of marketing.

> "That philosophy is called "existentialism", and was forwarded by philosophers such as Camus and Satre."

{Sartre, no?} That and a dose of egoism from ethics, too.

> "I am also of the opinion that a religion which bases itself upon oneself is by no means a religion. A religion to me is something
which helps you to unite with other people, and to get along with other people. Religion is something that provides a vocation, and
not a deep feeling of guilt."

So those religions which preach original sin and suchlike are not religions? Neither are those religions which encourage slavery, and the smiting of infidels? Neither are religions which have inspired wars and torture?

> "Another point: how can anyone do anything without harming anyone these days?"

Surprisingly easily. Certainly it's never been a problem for me - sure I've accidentally hurt some people - but that just shows that I'm human. In the meantime, I do my best.

> "Working on ones own self is all very well, but what about the people who can't help themselves?"

The Satanist answer would be that they die and get out of the way for more competent people, as far as I can see. Or perhaps that they get helped whether they want it or not.

> "I think that this religion would take human advancement backwards, not forwards, as the end result would essentially be survival of the fittest."

Given that the world is sadly ruled by capitalism and free markets which are based on precisely this principle, how exactly could Satanism be any worse?

The method of life for a satanist is by no means moral. How can someone go about their lives knowing that people are suffering, and doing nothing?
Modern live at te moment is not centered around survival of the fittest, because in this modern age humans are learning to cooperate. In my country, England, everyone has equal oportunities, and everyone has the right to express oneself.
In the third world countries things are unbearably bad, and so the developed countries are helping them.
If the world was to center on the religion, Satanism, then we would be taking a step backwards, because we wuold feel inclined to stop helping other poorer people, in favour of ourselves.
Also, doesn't helping people envoke a great sense of satisfaction in you, to know that you've helped someone, instead of helping yourself?
I find this religion bizarre because it has no unity about it. The rich don't need this religion, as they are already well-off, and the poor don't have a chance with this religion, as they tend to vote for a more left-wing government, which totally contradicts the ethos of self devotion.

On you reply: Your religion is absurd in todays light, not in the light of past religions.
JeanPaulSatre is a well know existentialist, check himout on this web-site: www.tameri.com/csw/exist/index.html

And presumably christianity is less absurd, believing in people being born of virgins, crisps and cheap wine turning into real-life blood and flesh, pillars of fire, and eating shellfish being an abomination?

> "Modern live at te moment is not centered around survival of the fittest, because in this modern age humans are learning to cooperate. In my country, England, everyone has equal oportunities, and everyone has the right to express oneself."
I'm in UK, too.
The right to express oneself we got only a few weeks ago. Big wows. And even then, it's not an absolute right - only a signal to courts to *try and* interpret legislation so that the right is maintained.
Equal Opportunities has always been an aspiration, not an achievement.
And clearly everyone is so co-operative nowadays that people can get mugged in the middle of crowded shopping malls, and nobody will do anything about it because they're scared of getting hurt.
Are you sure you're in the same country as me?

You probably think I'm being too cynical here, but I can't think of any systems that have ever failed because they overestimated people's selfishness. Can you?

> "In the third world countries things are unbearably bad, and so the developed countries are helping them."
Oh I see. when we loan money to corrupt dictators, wait for them to launder it all into Swiss bank accounts and retire, and then hit the country with crippling interest rates, and refuse to cancel the debts, we're "helping them". When we threaten Milosovic with the Hague, making him more determined to keep his grip on power, we're "helping them". When we intervene only in wars which threaten our supply of oil, and ignore the rest, we're "helping them". When we sell weapons of torture and destruction to authoritarian states with a hideous human rights record, we're "helping them". When companies are allowed to market powdered baby milk in places where the water supply is horrendous and cause huge numbers of avoidable deaths, we're "helping them". When the US invokes trade sanctions on South Africa because they're ignoring patents on AIDS medicine because they can't afford the cost, we're "helping them". I'm glad I got that sorted out.

Christianity does not turn bread and wine into blood and water, it merely represents blood and water. Maybe you were thinking of the Roman Catholic church? And eating shell fish is only an abonination according to relions such as islam, not christianity.

If people all followed yuor religion then people would stop getting mugged, but if everyone followed , for instance, christianity, then people would also stop getting mugged. The only difference is that chistianity incorporates the aid of others.

and if everyone was a satanist, then there would be a terrible imbalance in the country, as the rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer. This would inevitably lead to a revolution, and maybe a reversion to communism. This religion cannot work.

And you just can't do well without someone else doing badly, please give me such an example. If everyone was getting better all the time ( ie: everyone gaining money) then the real value of money would slowly decrease and so everything would be the same.

And I think that you are being far too cynical about the third world crisis. Not only do we give money to corrupt leaders but we also give lots of money to organisations that build wells and teach people how to farm properly, and how to use contraception.

However, I have been thinking about the subject and satanism can work. That is only if a select number of people are satanists.

It may surprise you to know that I consider Roman Catholics to be christian. Given how they worship christ and all.
Shellfish: let's see if I can find a reference - tumtum... aha!

[Lev 11:9-12] "These you may eat, of all that are in the waters. Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat.
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you.
They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination.
Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you."

> "If everyone followed , for instance, christianity, then people would also stop getting mugged. The only difference is that chistianity incorporates the aid of others."

Which works very well if people actually follow the religion they claim to. Now why was satanism started again? Oh yeah - hypocricy in the xtian church.

> "and if everyone was a satanist, then there would be a terrible imbalance in the country, as the rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer."

Which is so terribly different from the situation now.

> "And you just can't do well without someone else doing badly, please give me such an example. If everyone was getting better all the time ( ie: everyone gaining money) then the real value of money would slowly decrease and so everything would be the same."

It's quite possible for everyone to get richer, and being rich has nothing to do with the value of your currency. Or do you think that nobody's any better off than we were before the invention of fire?

> "And I think that you are being far too cynical about the third world crisis. Not only do we give money to corrupt leaders but we also give lots of money to organisations that build wells and teach people how to farm properly, and how to use contraception."

Indeed. We also send missionaries out to them to tell them that contraception is sinful in the eyes of the Lord, and build wells in inappropriate places and play merry hell with the water table.
And charities compete with each other to get the most money in donations, not to do the most good. That's how their senior executives earn more cash. Did you know that the % spent on advertising by charity has continually gone up in the last few decades?

But I will give you that we do occasionally do nice stuff for the third world. It's just that it's a drop in the water against the nasty stuff we do.

> "However, I have been thinking about the subject and satanism can work. That is only if a select number of people are satanists."

For a sufficiently biased definition of 'work', I'm sure that's true.

For the record, I'm not a Satanist. I just think they have fragments of the truth.

Heh...well...FROM A SATANIST POINT OF VIEW...
in the long run, Satanism would not only help the world, it would propel us back onto the track of evolution.
We have gone far to long worrying about our "fellow man" who goes around wasting his life working for others and being content without an original thought in his head and procreating which produces more of the same.
The third world nations are starving? LET THEM STARVE. How is it benificial to us to feed them? How is it benificial in an over-populated world to keep millions of constantly reproducing people alive when they do nothing for the rest of society? I see major flaws in your logic. Instead of sending them all our food and resources and preaching Christian bullshit at them, why not REALLY HELP THEM...Teach them what they did wrong with their land...teach them how to support themselves WITHOUT US...and teach them the benifits of sterilization and contraceptives when you are strangling yourselves to death with new births.

BTW...it might interest you to know that Anton LaVey was against abortion. It is not a fetus' choice to be conceved. Sterilization and contraceptives are the best choices.

We chatted earlier about ethics and egoism and suchlike. It may interest those here to read my new entry on ethics, which is at http://www.h2g2.com/A468920


I'm surprised that He didn't aprove of abortion - though I'm not quite clear why...

Great PR on LaVey's part. What better way of getting attention than having 40 million people looking at you funny!