h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

TF...

I appreciate your talking about this sensably, but I believe you missed a very big part of my last post. I never ATTACKED Christians, as a GROUP. I never said all Christians lie and all Christians are "full of B.S."

If that is what you got out of it, then I appologize. The point of that whole thing was that you cannot believe ANYTHING as emperically(SP?) true just because someone in authority...religious or NOT...tells you it is so. And, in my opinion, that is what the First Poster was doing. AND, I don't appreciate unproven statements like the fact that I don't know what my religion is REALLY about. I didn't like his attitude. So I spoke against him, but ONLY him.

I noticed someone brought up rumors of priests having sex with young alter boys or some such...and please notice that I did NOT. Because I don't KNOW how much of that rumor is true and how much isn't. I am fairly certain that it HAS happened...but I also believe the idea has been blown out of proportion. I don't go around saying to Catholics, "Well, you need to look at what your priests have done historically, and realize what your religion is REALLY about."

GG, belive me it HAS happened, and in not too far down the track, I may become personally involved with victims thereof. This is heartbreaking in the extreme. Not only to me but also to Christ, because whether it's right or not, people look up to priests and pastors as a representative of Christ, and when this is abused in that way it leaves a mess like no other. Unfortunately the pastoral relationship is a grey area and can go wrong. It's possibly more prevalent than we know, but having said that the media does love a beat up, especially if they can find scandal in a percieved house of righteousness. It's tabloid gold.

I used to be the sort of person who was very unyielding and elitist in my Christian belief (even against other Christians who I thought weren't as righteous and learned as I). These sort of subjects go way beyond even fanatical sports following, and we know how one eyed we can get about sport. I believe that in life, we're all a bit screwed up, and that that just manifests itself in different ways. Some of us use different methods to deal with this when we become aware of it. Christians 'should' be more understanding and compassionate about this than most,because of what Christ commands us to do. There is a parable about a servant who owes his master the ancient equivalent of tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars. He cannot pay and so his master - in compassion - forgives him the debt. That servant then goes to one of his underlings who owes him a few hundred dollars and demands payment. When the underling cannot pay, he is thrown into prison. When the master hears of this he says to his servant 'I forgave you much, but you could not even forgive a little, off to prison you go..'

I try to remember this as often as possible, but sometimes I get a little one eyed myself. GG, I sincerely apologise for using the terms Moron and Fool. I assure you that I purely did so to generate a reaction, not only from you but any lurkers aswell. I definately appreciate where you are coming from, because I went 17 years in a church where we were expected to blindly follow what came from the pulpit, and I finally realised that it was mostly lies. Now I'm a Baptist. (well there you go). From all of my ramblings, please remember, Christ and religion are not the same, they should be, but they're not. Please don't blame Christ for the sins of religion, because I believe that he was perfect and played the ultimate price. Please also approach Satanism with care and discernment. There is another world there, which isn't immediately evident. I've been there too.

Love is the key.

F-Reek

GG, belive me it HAS happened, and in not too far down the track, I may become personally involved with victims thereof. This is heartbreaking in the extreme. Not only to me but also to Christ, because whether it's right or not, people look up to priests and pastors as a representative of Christ, and when this is abused in that way it leaves a mess like no other. Unfortunately the pastoral relationship is a grey area and can go wrong. It's possibly more prevalent than we know, but having said that the media does love a beat up, especially if they can find scandal in a percieved house of righteousness. It's tabloid gold.

I used to be the sort of person who was very unyielding and elitist in my Christian belief (even against other Christians who I thought weren't as righteous and learned as I). These sort of subjects go way beyond even fanatical sports following, and we know how one eyed we can get about sport. I believe that in life, we're all a bit screwed up, and that that just manifests itself in different ways. Some of us use different methods to deal with this when we become aware of it. Christians 'should' be more understanding and compassionate about this than most,because of what Christ commands us to do. There is a parable about a servant who owes his master the ancient equivalent of tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars. He cannot pay and so his master - in compassion - forgives him the debt. That servant then goes to one of his underlings who owes him a few hundred dollars and demands payment. When the underling cannot pay, he is thrown into prison. When the master hears of this he says to his servant 'I forgave you much, but you could not even forgive a little, off to prison you go..'

I try to remember this as often as possible, but sometimes I get a little one eyed myself. GG, I sincerely apologise for using the terms Moron and Fool. I assure you that I purely did so to generate a reaction, not only from you but any lurkers aswell. I definately appreciate where you are coming from, because I went 17 years in a church where we were expected to blindly follow what came from the pulpit, and I finally realised that it was mostly lies. Now I'm a Baptist. (well there you go). From all of my ramblings, please remember, Christ and religion are not the same, they should be, but they're not. Please don't blame Christ for the sins of religion, because I believe that he was perfect and paid the ultimate price. Please also approach Satanism with care and discernment. There is another world there, which isn't immediately evident. I've been there too.

Love is the key.

F-Reek

Bit of a long entry to stuff up and post twice... Sorry

F-Reek

Appology accepted.

Believe me, I am aware of that other facet you talked about. I was involved in Devil Worship when I was in High School. So I feel I am very qualified to say that Satanism is COMPLETELY different. You just have to be intelegent enough to know which is which.

They used the same book and EVERYTHING. The fault was that they only let me read PARTS...saying that the rest was only for those high up in the group. Later, I realized what idiots and crazy people I was dealing with, and realized that they didn't want me to have my own mind either.

Then MUCH later, I read the book for myself, in full. And it was so different from what they had tried to get me to believe. Everything they quoted was twisted and taken out of context.

But my point is that this can happen in any religion. Just because people take Christian teachings and pervert them or use them for ill purposes, doesn't mean you condemn Christianity. I am saying that the same standards should hold for Satanism, or Islam, or any other religion.

There you go. It's pretty obvious that we all have opinions here. F-Reek, you're pretty right. About Catholic priests messing with little kids - I posted that, it's true. There have been tons of reports and almost as many convictions. I'm not saying that proves Christianity is bad and evil - I'm saying nobody's perfect. I can see the upcoming comment, which will be, "Christ was." I'm not prepared to debate that; he may have very well been, if he existed, another point which I am not prepared to debate. In fact, it probably can't be debated, there's no reliable proof either way, only faith or belief. Remember, faith cannot be right or wrong, simply believed and followed. Perhaps disputed. Therefore we cannot dispute religion etc., and this whole conversation is useless... _except_ as an exchange of opinions. In this way, I've found it quite helpful and enlightening. Thanks, guys. I've seen hardliners for both sides, and can't stand either. I don't even debate with them: it's useless. You guys have avoided a bunch of the really radical, in-your-face stuff. Let's continue this way, because this is a great discussion. To many more such discussions! Hey, if any of yous guys want to chat, look me up on AIM, I'll be around as ThePixelGuru. See yous around!

Amen.

Guys,I have really enjoyed this opportunity to talk about some weighty issues of quite possibly eternal significance, with some intelligent and articulate people. Some years ago I used to really contend with people that didn't agree with my opinions. You can never guess how much easier life got when I deceided that this was wrong. I have found that what I really can't stand is non committal people, and that if someone has a strong opinion then I love them for it.

Challenge everything and find the truth. It's by doing this that we will see some of the bad stuff on all our sides exposed and hopefully rectified; little bit by little bit. I probably will have a lurk and see you guys in some other conversations, because I genuinely enjoy the way we have worked on this one.

Blessings..

(oh... and I'm right really... )

Another thing you must take into mind: in Christianity, we are ALL sinners, and all less than God. Sin is an ever-present part of life, on this world which is temporal and fallen. The only way is through salvation, and God. That is what is stated. Now, no more of quibbling that Christianity is strict about sin! Yes, there are rules that must be followed, but if we break them, then ask for forgiveness while truly believing, we are saved. That is all. Christianity does not condone sin, but it does not exactly say that, "If you sin at all, you're going downstairs."

Faith can be wrong. For example, if someone had unswerving faith that the earth was flat, or that they were a green toad, they would certainly be wrong.

Yah, but what I was pointing out was that in Christianity, faith is somewhat more important to simply being a good person, no sinning, etc.

Ooh. A nice juicy thread full of inconsistencies and Christians to pick through. Forgive me if I have posted already, but the last time I posted on Satanism was about 2 years ago - and I've grown a little since then.

So here we go.

GoRan said -
>>>"One of the most relevant reasons is that Satanism (before LaVey established his Church, as well as after) was indeed involved in the worship of Satan (as he is depicted in the Bible, and perpetuated in the Catholic dogma), ritual sacrifice of animals (and sometimes human beings, children, or babies)!"<<<

Where? When? Are you sure you aren't falling for that old trick society uses? Historically, any group of people that are outcasts were known to be "baby-eaters" or "animal killers"...any non-Christian religious group, Jews, Nazis, Communists. You do provide some lame evidence in the form of Crowley and Gill D'laval...but lets put this straight.

Crowley was an overweight, drug addled fool.

Gill d. was a paedophile. And neither were Satanists.

Also >>>"Therefore, the most common satanists are not those of LaVey; he is but a fool trying to, as you yourself said, fit into the modern context."

I'm a fool? What is more foolish than trying to live by a 2000 year old text when humanity evolved a heck of a long time ago?

And : >>>"What people (including me) generally conceive of is a different kind of Satanism which was not replaced by LaVey, and which does exist even today, as I am writing this."

Oh yes. Those child killing, deviant devil worshippers. I forgot all about those. They are there, sure. But they aren't Satanists. They are delusional fools, only succeeding in making their lives miserable and chaotic and usually ending up in jail at some point in their lives. Satanists are certainly not that.

And : >>>" I am a Catholic, for example, and I can give you my most honest word that there is much more to Christianity than "restrictions.""

Of course. So many people wouldn't be involved in it otherwise. There are easy answers, rules and guidelines, and gratification of the generic human psyche. Self-deception, guilt complexes, misery and out of date theories. But hell, who's counting...

Also : >>>"World religions (at least Christianity I know for sure) do not "deny the basic human nature." If that were the case; all of those religions would perish."

Yup. They realised that a while back. How I enjoyed the documentary about Texan children, where the ministers gave lessons on how to have intercourse, the health clinics weren't allowed to educate the kids themselves, and the number one problems at the clinic were sexually related - that is, torn rectal tissue and STD's because they were either having anal sex as it wasn't "proper" sex, or just doing it anyway and not having the proper education about safe sex, they were passing on diseases on a grand scale and were too afraid to tell anyone. As it was illegal.

Gee. I love the freedoms of Christianity.

THEN : >>>" This only goes to prove that Man needs a sense in his/her life; which CANNOT be one's own Self!"

What proves it? Not anything in that post. In fact, my argument proves more than yours does. I am my own Self. And I seem to be doing OK with it...as do the other Satanists I am familiar with. And there are many of them. Maybe YOU can't be your own self, but I certainly can.

>>>"When you indulge in one's own Self, nobody but you yourself will feel gratification."

Yup. And it's great. And when I feel great, those around me feel great. Ain't it great?

>>>"Instead of reading what LeVay does not like about Christianity (definetely a partial view), you maybe ought to visit a clergyman (or a devout Christian) and ask him/her: What and why does Christianity make you happy? And then you will see that they will not say: "Well, because I do not eat as much as I want to; or because I do not sleep as much as I sometimes feel like sleeping!""

He doesn't write that much about what he doesn't like about Christianity (as you would know if you had read his books) - he uses it to justify his opinions, but not as a complete obsessive topic of literature. Unlike Christianity, which seems to devote years to the devil himself.

>>>"Finally, I feel that The Church of Satan (whatever its ulterior motive may be) CANNOT (AND SHOULD NOT TRY TO) change the prevailing perception; the use of the word Satan is the misplaced by LaVey, not the mundane people."

It doesn't. It's not a fanatical organisation trying to change the world. It keeps itself pretty much to itself. The only time it really does rise to the surface, are when legalities occur. For instance, some loser decides to blame Satan for the 19 murders he commits...the CoS step in neatly and give the reality of Satanism. Your reality of Satanism is severely flawed.

How do I know? I AM A SATANIST. You have more to gain in tarnishing Satanism than I do by defending myself...

*phew* Next post coming up...

Lucinda , hey Lucinda. You made some mistakes...

You said : >>>"Satanists would like us to be more like animals - I'm not so sure that is a good thing."

Satanism accepts the carnal nature of man. It doesn't want YOU to be anything you're not. It's not a recruiting type of organisation. We are animals...in my opinion (because I'm trying to avoid sounding too...well, you know.)...it's self-deceiving to pretend we are anything we aren't in terms of behaviour. You only have to look at how people act, and how nations act, and how powerful people act in order to know what I am talking about.

GoRan - yup back to you sir.

You said : >>>"Do you know anything of present-day Satanist sects (organizations), some furtive, some not? Do you know anything about OTO?"

I do. I know all about it. What is your point. Oh wait...here it is...

"I should stress that many Satanists DO NOT openly admit that they worship Satan, precisely because of the abovementioned widely-held and popular conceit regarding them. But, the final effect IS absolutely horrific. Calls for collective murders, human sacrifice, that sort of thing. This goes on IN MANY SECTS! Sects are sprawling throughout the globe, and many of them are predicated on what you call "sick" beliefs. I would call them doctrines; and I would not certainly dismiss them as easily as you are. They do outrageous things, not of the sort this alleged Satanist introduction describes: "Do what you wish as long as it does not interfere with others." That is crap... Real (or most of) Satanists do things that fade in comparison with Inquisition, for example. Sick, demented, there is no adequate description for that utterly criminal conduct."

I could actually yikes that post for defemation. I'm not a criminal, and I never will be. Satanists do NOT worship Satan. We leave that to the devil worshipping idiots with too much time on their hands. That above quote is full of hysterical tripe, I've never come across it in the past years, or indeed right now, and you should go out there and educate yourself instead of reading the Sunday tabloids and believing implicitly what others tell you...gossip is indeed ignorance's best friend.

Just out of interest...who are YOU to tell the world what a real Satanist is?

PixelGuru -

Just in general, there are no "beliefs" or "followers" when it comes to the Church of SATAN...

*next post coming in a second*

Okay.

Maybe not another post.

Thus I am done.

*continues on to polish her brain*

I personally suspect that some of the most pointed and profound reflections on the nature of Christianity and Satanism are to be found in Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman's novel "Good Omens"

It's menat as comedy... but to wuote another American who spent his life trying to avoid being a guru (Robert Anton Wilson)and who also preached a message of "THINK FOR YOURSELF, SCHMUCK!"


"it isn't true

unless it makes you laugh"