h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

discussion continued, eh?

I have pretty much ignored what everone else said, cos I'm going to try and respond to what McDuff said. A lot of stuff gets said here, and I can't read it all.

If I said HM was cool, then I probably would have meant that it is now fashionable, which is what you said it isn't. I disagree. There are an awful lot of metalheads popping up around my area, and metal bands are starting to churn out commercial shit that is more akin to the pop/dance/rave scene.

>As for Christians being in the majority, well I certainly hope so >but I can't see any sign of it.
BULLSHIT! There are f**k-tons of people with little crosses on the ends of their name, or the 'H2G2 Christians' wedgie-inducer, or the general "I am a poor lonely persecured christian please talk to me if you are too". Case closed!

Ok, here's something I figured out on the toilet. Christianity is all about trying to make life all hip for you and everybody, right? If so, then why all the advertising? Oh sure, to let other people have a chance to save their souls. But it's not done in that manner. It seems to be more like "I'm a christian thus I am better than you."
If I wanted christianity to save my ass, I'd start being a christian. I do not need a thousand American englavists telling me I'm scum and will die horribly if I do not convert. It sounds extreme, but it's what happens.
So, I guess I'm perfectly happy for a christian to worship his god and do the christian things. I do not want him jumping up and down in front of me telling me how great he is because of it. I do not need the filth and the lies that comes from it too.

By 'filth and lies', I am not attacking what you believe in. I am attacking the idea that christians are pacifists, yet they still do shit.

If you want to know my response to your analogies: yes, I would start getting all racist and homophobic, most likely.

Ok, maybe I've misinterpreted what you've said. If I have, please say. It's just that it's difficult to read and digest these massive things that get posted here (like this posting I'm doing right now).
And I tend not to read some of the stuff other people say, cos I start reading and it has nowt to do with me. If I'm losing the plot, please say.

Thanx and goodnight.

I'm going to reply to Mike A first because he did the same for me, and anyway I don't think he'd read everything posted for other people.

Mike, much as I don't like the fact, Heavy Metal is out. At least around my area, it was never really in. It will never _be_ in, either, because of the way the music industry is arranged. HM is impossible to clone successfully or manufacture (crap HM just sounds crap, wheras crap DancePop sounds just like the real thing to the untrained ear ), and it has too many unmanagable factors to it, eg the mixup with satanism and crap like that. Proof - look at the ratio of HM to dance in the UK charts. Look at the sales figures of stuff like Stardust compared to, for instance, Slipknot. Even if people are getting into Korn and Limp Bizkit in the US, it still can't touch Christina Aguillera for sales. I'm not defending one type of music over anything else, but those are the sales figures. Media Bosses are chickens - they want to give people the same crap that they bought last week.

I think you notice more Christians than I do. I'm sure there are plenty, but we ain't a majority by any stretch of the imagination. Do you really think that people in the public eye who say they are, all are? Take Bill Clinton - branded as radical leftist christian or something. Which basically means he can do whatever the hell he likes with his cigars apparently.

"Ok, here's something I figured out on the toilet."

Archimedes had the bathtub.....

"Christianity is all about trying to make life all hip for you and everybody, right?"

Wrong. Christianity is about getting with God. It's about love. You can be funky and nice to people you don't give a shit about, but you aren't always "nice" to people you love.

And as for American evangelists, well believe it or not sometimes they work. Personally I cringe everytime I see them, and I hate the "touch your screens and chequebooks" scum. But people like Benny Hinn, who actually does stuff, I admire greatly for having the balls to get up there and actually say "You need Jesus." Note, this does not involve telling people that we're better than them. The thing about Christianity is that there is no concept of better or worse in terms of people.

I would advise against developing opinions about any group of people based upon personal experience. Until you have met all black people you are in no position to say "blacks are all .... whatever." Similarly, you can't say "blacks are all good." True equality gives every group of people the right to contain angels and cretins.

OK Mike, if you like you can stop reading now.

ddombrow:

I'm sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I am not in any way saying that we should get rid of the Bible as the foundation of our faith, I'm just saying that we need to be aware that the foundation doesn't stretch forever, and that it needs reinforcing with the spirit. When you build a skyscraper, you reinforce the concrete with steel rods, because concrete is very good at withstanding compressive forces but not at withstanding shearing forces. Because we use the steel to reinforce, do we get rid of the concrete? No, we recognise the strengths and weaknesses of both and work with them. The bible has limitations, but the Bible, which is the Word of God revealed by His spirit, is limited only by God Himself, and how much He reveals. Is that a bit clearer now. Sorry if I looked like I was more liberal than I am.


GB:

"And in the Old Testament, there's quite a bit of racial superiority on the part of the "Chosen People," and Christians tend to identify themselves as such, even though they are generally descended from Gallic and Germanic tribes that the real chosen people had never heard of."

So, that would make us Gentiles, a Gentile being a non-Jew? Do we still fall under the Great Commission? We consider that the old boundaries which once separated us from God, and if I'd have lived 4000 years earlier here I cannot tell you what would have happened, but now the boundaries no longer exist.

oh yeah, 40 years? Excuse me, but Mother Theresa was much older than 56 when she died and she'd been feeding and washing beggars on the streets of Calcutta since she was 16 (or was it 17?). That's one example.

Austin Allegro:

"why do you need Jesus in order to be nice to people?"

You don't. Anyone can be nice to people. You need Jesus because you need Jesus. The love and peace and everything else that comes along afterwards is a side effect that comes from getting to know your God.

"Surely, you too must be able to see that if you abandoned your faith tomorrow, this wouldn't change your personality. You'd still be a good, decent person. So what i'm saying is, where does Jesus come into the equation?"

Simple. He makes people like me, who would rather not be nice to people, be nice. He helps me get past the politics. I wish I were like you, AA, and I could love everyone regardless of my own opinions and personal circumstances, but I'm not, and I need help. Y'see, what happened to me was that I stopped being horrendously opinionated for no reason, and I learned to see everyone else's side of the argument. It's just like the Jars said "If you follow Me you'll see all the black, all the white, fade to grey." There are no longer people who you don't love, just people. Is it easy? No. Is it fun? Not usually. Would I change it for the old way? Never. It's 400 degrees of vision, where you can see the bully in school 10 years ago was hurting more than you. Where you gotta keep flogging your guts out because the other people are what matters, and if you can't make a difference for the better you'd better not make anything at all. And as my art teacher used to say, "the man who never made a mistake never made owt." We ain't talking about being nice here, we're talking about touching God. And there's a world of difference.

"I am a firm believer that people should be allowed to do anything they like, believe what they like, as long as it does not hurt other people."

That's actually near as dammit where we're living now. If that's Utopia then I don't want it. My vision of Utopia is simple - everyone does what they want. But they don't want to do anything that will cause suffering for others, so you don't need the rule. No-one ever says "look out for number 1, because no-one else will." People live together and the question of pain and suffering is not important because people don't hurt people because they don't want to, not because some rules mean that their fun will be cut short if they accidentally shoot a man and not a bear.

As for barriers, people put up barriers and call them religion, or society, or empowerment, or whatever they want to call it. The whole POINT of the cross was the removal of barriers. I'm as anti-religion as you are, probably more so, I'd prefer to get on with being a Christian.

ddombrow:

Jesus said: "No-one comes to the father but through me"

What do you believe happens to those people who haven't heard the message, eg Moslem women who have been kept inside all their lives and never been exposed to anything else. Or aborted babies. This is not a trap, I just want to see what you think.

Okay McDuff, I think you were right about me misunderstanding earlier. I just jumped when you said the bible is infallible. If what you mean by that is that in book form it is limited by the fact that often we don't read, understand, or apply it properly, I can agree with that.

As to your question, I'll start with babies. All humanity has inherited the sin of Adam, and so are are separated from God even from the time of their birth. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think there are any verses directly related to this issue, so whatever I say is kind of on shaky ground. I can say that I don't think the baptism of babies accomplishes anything other than peace of mind for Catholic parents. I would also say that I do not believe God would have the attitude of "they never accepted Jesus, and that's that". Perhaps he sees whether they would have accepted, perhaps he allows them accept. I'm sure he makes allowance for it, I'm just not sure what that allowance is. Most people I've talked to also discussed the "age of accountabilty" which is the point where we are held accountable for our sins. It seems reasonable, as long as you say the age is different for every person, and that its a "mental" age so that it includes people who are mentally disabled.

As for the moslem women and others who haven't heard, you might try my article "A God Before All Nations". If you don't want to, the basic rundown is that the attributes of God are clearly seen in nature and the world around us, so that people are without excuse when they do not believe. I've somewhat revised my opinion on it since then, but I think I still mostly believe what I wrote (my opinions do change when presented with more evidence).

You listen to Jars of Clay? Has their new album got to the UK yet?

Hey there...
ahem, sorry, that little script you sent me seems to have lead me here.
*walks out again in shame, closes door softly behind him, yells when he's out of hearing range*

My my my... in my absence, it seems a pack of dogmas have been running rampant in this forum.

Well, I ended the last forum with two open ended questions, and have yet to see an answer, so I will reiterate:

1) Define the Holy Spirit

2) Explain why ANY part of the Bible should be interpreted literally.

McDuff, in reply to your last post to me:

"I wish I were like you, AA, and I could love everyone regardless of my own opinions and personal circumstances,"

Now, that's not what I said, is it. Obviously i don't love everyone. There are a lot of people i cannot tolerate and I do hate. I think you'd have to be pretty shallow to be able to love everyone regardless of who and what they are. What I am saying is that I am just as capable of love as much as any christian, but I don't need god or jesus to help me do it.

If I interpreted your comments correctly (?), you think that my vision of utopia is where everyone is the same, everyone thinks the same, no one has a cross word because everyone agrees with everyone else. Well, if that is what you think I think, then no. Blimey, that would be horrible! Life would become so unfeasibly boring if we all agreed with each other. I think i can safely say that everyone who has posted on this forum is doing so because they enjoy a good argument! I don't think there would be such a forum community if we just complemented each other on our comments, and told each other what we already knew. No, what i think utopia is is full acceptance of others opinions and beliefs, even if you do disagree with them.

OK, so i'm not even capable of this myself at present, but it would be nice. I have known people who have said to me things like "Gays are freaks and should be killed", and "Black people aren't British and should be sent back to Africa". Now all of a sudden, I make sure that I do not associate myself with these people anymore, because this sort small-minded idiocy i have a big problem dealing with. It would be nice if i could just say to myself, "Oh, it's just their opinions, and they're entitled to them", but i can't do that because that sort of opinion i think is just so completely f**ked up.

"My vision of Utopia is simple - everyone does what they want. But they don't want to do anything that will cause suffering for others, so you don't need the rule."

Have you read/seen 'The Clockwork Orange'? (they've just re-released the Kubrick film in the UK, so i strongly advise you to go and see it if you haven't). It sounds to me like this may be the only way to get to the society that you are proposing, and that's just not something I want to get involved in .

"I'm as anti-religion as you are, probably more so, I'd prefer to get on with being a Christian."

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying here. How can you be anti-religion and a Christian? Unless what you are saying is that you do not believe in god, heaven or hell, but do believe in the philosophical ideologies of Christ. Do you believe that Jesus was just another guy, not really the son of god, but someone who just had a lot of good ideas? I've read some of your previous posts, and i don't think this is what you believe. Please explain.

If religion did not meddle with (non-religious) people's lives so much I'm sure I wouldn't have such a problem with it. The way state and religion is mixed is the main fault, as I see it. Israel is the worst example - religion is to blame for the lack of public transport on buses and other such impositions. The fantastic Millennium Dome (a big tent full of crap if you're not familiar with it) could have been much better if religion didn't try to intervene. And no, I don't care that the only reason for the Millennium is JC. There's no chance he was born in 0AD. He probably wasn't born in 1AD either. Each time the archbishop speaks out against something or other I just get more agitated. But that's the thing - religion is about power - the churches need people to control.

Yes it has, and I have it. It's a damn well produced piece of music, isn't it? I love the Jars, because they manage to produce something which is actually original in sound. That normally eludes Christian musos....

The church IS the people. Archbishops are only human beings given a role of responsibility, no human being is infallible. I mean, how many times do I have to reiterate that Christianity is only a religion because people need guidance from humans and need people to back themselves up. The religious nature of Christianity is its human-based millstone.

fair enough, denial of God despite evidence I will go with. But someone who has been faithful to Allah, but who dies never hearing that there is another God, and so has been unable to make a choice, or who has heard but only through people who say things like "those infidels the Christians." What of them?

1) Well, although I'm not _exactly_ sure what you mean by define I'll give it a shot. Tell me if I'm way out.

The Holy Spirit is one third of the Trinity. No, I can't explain the Trinity very well, because it requires you to buy 1=3. I can buy that, because I can buy QED, QCD and 9/12D space. However, I can't explain those very well either. The Holy Spirit is that part of God which acts as an intermediary between the spirits of those who communicate with God (not necessarily "christians") and the Big One Himself. He is deemed to be the instigator of the physical effects that we can percieve, God's Hands, for want of a better metaphor. He is mentioned many, many times in the NT, and a few times in the OT (although not as frequently, and more obliquely). There is debate about the personality of the Spirit, Jehovas Witnesses believe that the Spirit is a force instigated by God, some believe that the effects are merely an aspect of the main personality of God, and some believe that He is a separate personality who still remains part of the one God. Personally, I go for the latter, but remain open to the possibility of option 2.

2) Hmmm, why.....

Right. Some parts of the Bible are historical notes, made by various people. Some are prophecies, written by the scribes who followed various prophecies around. Some are sermons, one is apparently a play, and some are people who are describing visions that they have seen. Of these, the ones that should be taken literally are the historical accounts. These also tend to have other, implicit meanings. The OT generally echoes the NT (not the other way round) and is a sort of symbolic practice run. Also, under the spirit some parts can mean different things to different people, however these are personal and need not be explained to others. Why should we believe these accounts? Well, _I_ trust them because I believe that they are inspired by God. _You_ have to make up your own mind for this one, and I believe that you already have, GB.

Who decided that humans need guidance from these so called 'educated' leaders? Are people so stupid that they need to be preached what to do and have "guidance" to their salvation?
"human-based millstone"? Can you explain? But anyway, the nature of Christianity is having a hierarchy of people who think they are more important than the masses - people who have control over the lives of the masses. That's the nature of Christianity : Power.

People under a condition only to believe in any religion are equally wrong. People should have the choice of what to believe in. It is wrong to be preached to about anything. People should be educated to about as many religions as possible - NOT preached. The difference is that the education should be impartial. People shouldn't be told that if they do not follow THEIR religion they will be damned to hell. That's the only way they can make a free decision.

AA, it is obvious that you and I differ greatly in our personal ideologies, beyond just believing in God/Christianity or not. I'm going to go through this giving opinions from my personal viewpoint, but I appreciate that these are not universal and that you may not subscribe to them. Well, here goes:

"Obviously i don't love everyone. There are a lot of people i cannot tolerate and I do hate. I think you'd have to be pretty shallow to be able to love everyone regardless of who and what they are."

Now, you see, I do. I think it is very obvious that no-one can love everyone, I agree with you there. However, I don't do it. This is why I need Jesus to help me, because there are people out there who may be completely wrong, who may want to kill me and spit in my face, who may be vicious dictators who slaughter thousands of innocents a year, but who still need love. Yeah, it sounds like a hippy mentality, and maybe this is where the hippies were halfway to. I don't like the regimes in Kosovo, Cuba (although compared to some..), China (definitely not!), all those. I would like them to be brought to an end as much as anyone else, more if possible. However, I believe that everybody has done stuff wrong, and that it is not my place to judge and condemn anyone for their actions here, God will do that, but that it is my job to try and right the wrongs and do as much good to turn the tide as possible. Am I a great, noble guy? Hell no! Do I always succeed in living up to what I feel, or do I sometimes get angry and want to smack some guy's head off the desk? Try to guess the answer. But I never stay angry. It is _impossible_ (I know because I have tried) for me to stay angry overnight, or for me to fail to see the other person's side of the argument. Hey, sometimes their side isn't very good, but even if I don't like a person I still love them.

I don't know if you can understand this. This isn't being shallow, this is seeing beyond the shallow, the stuff that is just what people do, and realising that if all we do is judge others, we may find that others are judging us. It's a frikkin irritating way to live and has cost me more sleepless nights than anything else, but I would not change it for the world.

Utopia:

"No, what i think utopia is is full acceptance of others opinions and beliefs, even if you do disagree with them."

Indeed. I think that we may be getting a few crossed wires here, and that we may agree on more (for this) that we disagree on. I have taken as my firm belief that everyone has their own right to choose their own path. If (heaven forbid) some screwed up militant sect of Christianity suddenly seized power and said "no-one has any right to say God does not exist," even though I believe God does not exist I would be fighting on your side, not theirs, because that's religion.
I consider racism, homophobia, anti-semetism etc to be undesirable and evil, but if we have to put up with them in order to have freedom of speech then we have to do so - there is no other way. When I said that people in my view of utopia, the perfect society, to not have to have a rule telling them not to harm others, that did not mean that I want them to all think the same. You yourself said, on this board we don't think the same, we are here because there is disagreement. But, if we were to be doing this in rl and some guy leapt over and tried to stab one of us, I would hope that the others would see that this is wrong, regardless of their religion, and attempt to stop it, not looking out for number one but putting others first. My perfect society is probably unattainable by people who aren't dead, but all it involves is that people are unselfish and put others before themselves. When this happens, everything else will follow naturally.

On Religion:
"Religion" is the rules, the controls, the human construct put up around Faith and God. Religion says "to achieve enlightenment you must be one with the universe for 80 years on top of a mountain," religion says "go to church on sunday, be bored for an hour and then come back," religion says "the more active I am in church, the more God loves me." All that is rubbish. When I say I am anti religion, I say that I am against the rules, the ceremonies and the crap that people put in place around their lives and worship instead of God. Going to church doesn't make you a christian! Terry Pratchett hit it on the head in Small Gods - "around the god there is built a shell of ceremonies and prayers which surrounds and suffocates the god. The shell grows thicker and the god grows smaller, until eventually the god dies. And this is not noticed." Now Pratchett isn't a Christian (I think) but he summed up what happens to people who let themselves stagnate better in this book than any preacher - they focus on the ceremony rather than the God. I say, forget the Common Book of Prayer circa 1604 or whatever it is, and just try and talk to God! People read Jesus saying "this is how to pray" and think that He meant "always pray exactly these words" - thus The Lord's Prayer. Yes, it's significant, but was intended as a guide, not a dogma!

OK, another post that's too long. Must go and write something _proper_ now, like an Essay on One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Ever read that? Now that's a good book!

The leaders aren't educated, they are merely placed by god in a situation of leadership. My pastor used to be an estate agent. there is no reason for anyone to go to Bible School or any of that. But there is a need to be dedicated and for people to live full time to learning themselves so that they can teach. People are saved by simplicity, but need guidance to grow. It's the same with anything in life - you sign up for a job, and those with experience try to guide you around the mistakes and let you learn from their own experience. Most sermons are teaching exercises to help those who are already Christians to develop further.

The nature of a Christian leader is to serve the people he leads. Jesus washed His disciple's feet for them in a symbolic act that set the trend. The leader is not there to control, but to guide, serve, protect and love. And excuse me, but I am a Christian and therefore, I think, more qualified to know about the "nature of Christianity" which is not about power but love. Thank you.

And yes, people should be free to make the choice. I am against the outlawing of any religion, and people should be free to make their own choices. Unfortunately, this does open them to being duped and joining wierd ass soul-destroying cults, but that is the price of choice. Freedom of speech leads to racists shouting their views, freedom of choice means freedom to make right or wrong choices.