h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Somebody explain this to me, please. You're probably all better at this global politics business than I am.

Why aren't we more worried about North Korea?

I feel terribly sorry for those poor people. They're poor, most of them are hungry, and they don't have the same freedom to move around as the rest of us. When anybody tries to help, or even find out what's going on over there, their government gets all shirty about it and threatens to take us out with extreme prejudice.

Now, I'm not saying the North Korean citizens are on any kind of axis, let alone an evil one. No, sir. They aren't any different from the rest of the planet - they believe what their media tell them. Like everyone else, they pretend that:

- Their government is full of wise statesmen, even if there's no proof of this. (We do that.)

- Things will get better if they go with the flow. (Don't we?)

- Modern media are where it's at: we can believe in our hearts what our music and entertainment tell us emotionally.

So, when people in North Korea see this video, I suppose they think it's just the right sort of thing:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2273721/North-Korea-nuclear-attack-America-shown-astonishing-dream-sequence-YouTube-video.html

(Scroll down to the bottom of the article for the video.)

It's not the best piece of propaganda I've ever seen - I've studied the efforts of the British during WWI, and the Germans and Americans during WWII, and for sheer cunning and cynicism, those three parties couldn't be beat. It's the fact that they're doing it that worries me.

Everybody seems to be laughing. Why? My guess is that it's because nobody thinks such a small country has the capacity to become a serious threat. It's sort of like laughing at the little guy who keeps trying to pick a fight with the biggest bruiser in the neighbourhood. When I was a kid, and somebody uttered a threat nobody believed, they'd say, 'Yeah? You and whose army?'

But, you know what? If that government keep trying, sooner or later, they'll send a rocket with a nuclear warhead somewhere and blow something up. Someone's going to get hurt.

We need to do some outside-the-box thinking here. Stop laughing, and start talking.

Or am I missing something? I'm kind of naive.

An English journalist went to North Korea a couple of years ago, did a lot of secret filming while there and came back with a totally unbiased report. It was very similar to what East Germany or Russia was during the cold war. Not as bad as propaganda made it out to be.

Now, you could look at that film on YouTube and say "Why would they do that?" But I'd counter with "Have you seen Team America?"

The rest of the world take the mick out of North Korea so easily, so often you see it referred to as Best Korea, or Worst Korea. So often you see people sat at home in their own, safe living rooms pointing and laughing.

So, if North Korea is like the little kid who wants to pick a fight with the biggest bruiser, it's not unlikely that the biggest bruiser is a bully who keeps picking on the little kid.

So far only one nation has been insane enough to use atomic devices against its enemies - twice

I agree with both of you on all points, there. What bothered me were the cheap shots and the lack of concern, not the North Korean rhetoric.

I'm far less worried about what North Korea might do to its neighbours - let alone the big bully on the other side of the big ocean - than I am about what might happen internally. I wish those people had more options.

I think about what happened in Cambodia, once upon a time. I knew people who were there.

Cambodia really wasn't good.

But from what I've seen North Korea is more communist style state with capitalist families at the top and poor communists everywhere else

So pretty much the same mess as everywhere else?

Did this story come from "The Onion" or similar? This sounds like a nonsense story or some student project.

You mean the video? I found it on yahoo, besides the Daily Mail, which is convenient to link to, but not everybody's favourite source, I'll grant...let me do some more digging, and I'll get back to you.

I believe these sorts of youtubes from North Korea are not unusual at all. And yes, they really need a better propaganda bureau.

Off to do some research.

I remember a while back the Burmese military government refusing help of western aid after their region had been hit by a typhoon. It was reported here the UK that the Burmese government were allowing millions of their population die from hunger and ill health in the aftermass ... because of their refusal to allow help from the "west". There was pictures of US warships apparently containing medicines and food not being allowed into Burmese waters to help out.

I remember that. Maybe it looked different from there - perhaps all they saw were warships.

Okay, Forbes has reported it, also the New York Times and major networks. Not a 100% guarantee, but at least it's not Fox News.

Sec, where's the original site?

Here's the footage on LiveLeak:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=203_1360053143

LiveLeak quote:

'The footage was uploaded on Saturday by the North's official website, Uriminzokkiri, which distributes news and propaganda from the state media.'

If you read Korean, you can look at Uriminzokkiri. I can't read Korean.

If you care to read Forbes' coverage, it's here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/02/05/north-korean-propaganda-video-uses-call-of-duty-footage/

Their columnist seems more interested in film criticism: the video uses a pop song from the 1980s and footage from a video game. As I said, Josef Goebbels would not have approved of their technique. Leni Riefenstahl might have given them a few tips. Heck, those Finns who made 'Iron Sky' could probably help.

I suspect Stephen Colbert will get around to making mock, eventually. Last week, he was in there pitching.

I'm no stranger to culture clash, myself, and while the North Korean aesthetic choices are, in the words of Business Insider, 'head scratching', I don't fault them for not using social media as effectively as, say, NASA. It takes a defter touch.

I was more worried about the consequences of a direct confrontation. You see, I worry because I know the people on the 'other' side: the sort who tend to respond to a pillow fight with a switchblade. You get my drift?

Yes. I think China would press down on North Korea if the North Koreans did something really foolish. I am not really sure myself how north korea "works". The North Koreans seem to be wary of south korea and the US military presence on Korean soil. I would imagine most of their politics (together with the usual "corruption" of leaders / military heads) is focused on the Korean peninsula, and wishing to have the US military influence removed from Korean soil.

China probablys sees North Korea as a "useful" buffer against US pressure and influence in the region (south east asia). China considers the presence and patrols of US aircraft carriers and warships in international as well as disputed waters off their own coast (South China seas etc) as aggressive and a threat to their own interests in the area.

All of which has to do with a lot of bad management back in the 1950s. Just as Vietnam was the result of terrible postwar diplomacy, and a very bad decision to postpone an election there.

Never let anybody say 'dominoes' in the State Department again.

I've been doing more research into North Korean Youtube videos. I found a good one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-fEQBKvZfo

This is a well-made cartoon that is quite reminiscent of ones produced by the US propaganda machine during the 1940s, only less offensive, as it is devoid of racial stereotypes.

The moral appears to be: do your maths homework. The Pythagorean theorem will help you defeat Evil.

Hi Dmitri! In my opinion: we need to recognize that entire nations can be insane. That doesn't mean everybody there suffers from mental illness, but rather that there is a kind of insanity entrenched in the culture, in the views being propagated and accepted by perhaps a majority of the public. I can with some authority say that us South Africans had this insane culture and to a very large degree still do. Insane as in contrary to facts, contrary to good, healthy, positive principles, and contrary to our own best interests. It was the same in Nazi Germany, in Cambodia under Pol Pot, in Russia especially during the Stalin years, in China during the Mao years ... I remember reading how at a point the Chinese were preparing for and looking forward to a nuclear war because a wonderful new world would, so they thought, rise from the ashes. I don't know how true this is, I might go and look for corroboration, but it illustrates a kind of insanity because it is contrary to the fact that a global nuclear war would so devastate the world that no wonderful new world would be able to rise from the ashes for hundreds or perhaps thousands of years.

Anyways from what I've read of North Korea they seem to have inherited the old Chinese attitude while China itself has lightened up and realised the world is different and at least in some ways are adapting.

I don't know what the answer is ... national psychotherapy? Perhaps we should understand the problem better by studying how people actually go nuts in large groups. While still appearing to be functional and healthy they nevertheless believe things that are nuts. My own country provides so many examples ... so does the USA I think.

That's a really good point, Willem. I think it's true - whole nations can behave in ways that seem psychotic.

Think of Europe in 1914.

A few thoughts:

I believe North Korea is far more closed to the outside world than say the German Democratic Republic used to be. North Koreans probably can't see nearly as mush western television or use the Internet as the East Germans could. This makes a significant difference. We probably should not expect mass demonstrations in North Korea any time soon.

According to western media the North Korean regime has in the past often denied that thousands of its citizens were starving - but it has also on occasion allowed help from outside.

It is difficult to know what life in North Korea is like, but according to a documantary I saw recently at least some of them live quite normal lives and go about their business as you and I do.

As for nuclear power, what right have we (Nato) to deny North Korea (and Iran) acces to it? Do we really think they are so insane they would use it against the US (and/or Israel)?

We used to hail the balance of power - so why have we given Israel access to nuclear power, but deny other nations the same?

It is highly interesting to follow the development that may or may not take place right now in North Korea. How smart is Kim jong-Un? If he realizes changes have to be made - how far can he trust the people at his side? Will they allow him to open his country. Will they allow a chinese model (you, the people are allowed to pratise capitalism if we, the regime, are allowed to stay in power?). Or will he suddenly "become sick"?

There is plenty of room for speculation!

Having now read Willems post I hasten to add that yes, regimes may be insane, but even insane regimes harbour high ranking individuals that can think straight and somewhat sensible. Think about Hess and Himmler, who - each in their own way - tried to negotiate with the allies behind the Führers back. Much too late, of course, but that's a little beside the point.

Anyway, back to North Korea

Good thoughts, indeed, Pierce - how much is North Korea's leadership willing to change, and how can they go about making changes without losing stability?

Which was really what I was thinking. The most sensible strategy would be to help encourage growth there, to offer assistance whenever possible. Because that would be the best way to build peace.

As to nuclear proliferation, that's something the UN should be a leader in deciding, not NATO or any other regional alliance. And there's a difference between nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons. I share your concern about differentially favouring one nation over another.

The goal should be that someday, NO ONE has nuclear weapons. It makes about as much sense for anybody to have those things as it would for my next-door neighbour to have a rocket launcher.

I don't buy the label of "insanity" as applied by Willem in his comment. I think it is just an excuse to cover for ones own ignorance, lack of knowledge and understanding of the actual situation and laziness in not carrying out actual research to address the lack of knowledge etc. In my mind it is equivalent to what others accuse religious folk of doing when some of them divide the world into good and evil or the sane and the insane.

I would disagree with that, Stone Aart. Because I think I know where Willem's coming from on this.

As I understood it, he's not applying the word 'insanity' as a label. He's comparing the process of collective reasoning to the process of individual reasoning that characterises certain mental illnesses.

And I think there's some evidence for that.

Now, we all know better than to think there's a bright line between 'sanity' and 'insanity'. Or that to label a thing is to understand it.