h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This is probably a horribly contentious subject, but I am amazed no-one else seems to share my concern.

The facts are as follows:

1) The UK Government admit that BSE can be passed to humans as CJD.
2) They claim the most probable cause/spread of BSE is by feeding cattle parts to cows.
3) They subsequently banned the feeding of offal, bones, spine and brains to cows and insisted all cattle connected with the food chain must be slaughtered by 30 months old. This was instigated in 1996.
4) They did not ban the use of other cattle products in cattle feed (i.e. blood, tallow and gelatine) and apparently, currently 22,000 tons of cow material is fed each year to our cows.
5) Recently tests have proved that BSE/CJD can be passed on by blood transfusions and there is proof from the recent birth of a baby (who now has CJD) from a mother with CJD that it can be transmitted from mother to child/offspring.
6) In the past, most of the BSE cases did not become apparent until the cows were approx. 3 years old, therefore by killing the cattle at 30 months they could prevent any new cases becoming apparent. However, recently there have been a number of cattle born since the ban of feed stuffs in 1996, which have lived beyond 30 months and have since developed BSE. This proves that, if allowed to live long enough, cattle are still developing BSE and furthermore, how did they catch it?

It is my opinion that BSE is as prevalent as ever, but the infected cattle are destroyed before they develop any symptoms. The ban of British beef was so damaging to our farmers, this Government (like the previous one) will do anything they can to keep the lid on this on-going problem.

The question is how damaging will this situation (cover-up?) prove to be to the people of the UK?

Comments please.......

If you buy grass raised beef there is no problem. Local butchers should know where their beef comes from. My Stepfather only buys his beef from one herd in Scotland that is a) grass raised and therefore b) has not had a single case of BSE.

There are plenty of BSE free herds around. Many farmers are now also starting to sell direct to the public. The problem is the consumer demands cheap meat. Meat production is an expensive process - try to cut corners and this is what happens.

It's not just our Govt that's covering up. Lots of other countries have this problem, they just don't use the letters 'BSE'.

I personally take the view that the damage to my brain has been done, if damage there be. I very rarely buy beef because of the price.

This is very true Dinsdale. Very true. It is easy to say we have no reported cases of BSE when you refer to it as something else.

I personally only eat organic beef and then very little of it. However, I have four strapping sons, who when they go to their mates find it hard to go without rather than eating the cheap beefburger and sausages on offer.

Also, it becomes an issue when you need a blood tranfusion. In Jan 1985, I had to be given 6 pints of blood, when I was very ill, I said I only wanted femaled blood for fear on contracting Aids. The hopsital staff assured me that you could NOT catch Aids through blood - three months later, the Government admitted that you could catch Aids through contaminated blood and started testing it. By then hundreds of heamophiliacs had been infected. Will it be the same with CJD?

As the prion is extremely hardy, and blood can pass the disease on, is it already in insect populations (ticks, clegs etc.), what protection do we have? are there any studies on this problem? Just something else for you to worry about Until later.....
BCNU - Crescent

Crescent, you have touched on another issue which has troubled me for years - Can the massive spread of Aids in Africa and other third world countries be connected with the malaria mosquito?

The HIV virii is not very sturdy, and 'dies' quickly once outside the body, so it needs a constant temperature, a solution to float in, preferably human blood, which is not being digested. So it is possible that mosquitoes can carry HIV, but to reinfect it would have to bite two people in quick succession (I do not know how long a feed lasts for a mossie) but I would have thought that it should be safe enough. I think that the masssive spread of HIV and AIDS in Africa comes from promiscuity and lack of decent protection, oh and the various govts turning a blind eye to it, another oh, and the reputation staining that occurs if you are discovered to be HIV+ve (stopping people getting tested Unfortunatly it is a human problem.....
BCNU - Crescent

I think there is a general problem in decision making by the powers that be. They seem to usume that to have got this far we, the human race, know more than we don't know. Time and again decisions are made which are fine judgments balancing on the edge of what we know and wht we think we know but don't, and time and again those judgements have to be altered eg. how much radiation is safe - that figure has been reduced enourmously since the first pronouncements were made. I am not saying there is anything malicious in this, it's that so often we don't know enough. OK so decisions have to be made and sometimes they will be wrong, but what's so bad about playing safe. I just can't understand how blood etc. has still been allowed in animal food. I've been playing safe since this started - I don't eat it because I don't trust the decision makers.

I totally agree about playing safe - cattle (and other livestock) should not be fed on any products or by-products of other animals. Apparently, they can test for BSE on dead animals, if this is the case, they should do a cross section of random testing on all animals slaughtered to assess the level on infection. As one journalist wrote recently "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Also, approx. 2 years ago they suddenly brought in the famous 'beef on the bone' ban and then lifted it as abruptly. Why was it brought in if there wasn't still a on-going risk of contamination? Where was the contamination coming from, if contaminated feed stuff had been banned? - and - Why did they suddenly decided there was no further risk (curiously at a time when the British beef industry was crumbling in the face of continued European bans) and lift the ban?

It's amazing how much less the whole BSE thing concerns me since I became vegetarian

My opinion, generally, has been one of scepticism with regard to all the doom-sayers who think everyone will be dead in five years. Few things irritate me more than public health scares which cause a few hundred thousand times more trouble than whatever they were about...

Shrug, I'd recommend becoming a vegetarian anyway, not for safety reasons, but because the food is better

26199

'...scepticism with regard to all the doom-sayers who think everyone will be dead in five years...'

Amen to that.

'Because I like it' is probably the best reason for eating anything. No-one can argue against that. People do lots of things that are bad for them because they like them. Smoking, drinking, boxing, etc.

I generally don't eat much beef - I don't like it.
There are lots of other things to concern me about dying that are much more likely, getting run over by a bus for example.

I suspect that there people will die in the UK of CJD for years to come but that there will be no massive outbreak.
I also suspect that on the whole, British Beef is NOW some of the safest in the World. Other countries do interfere with their BSE statistics.

It is interesting that BSE cases rose quickly and massively (and then decreased)amongst cows but CJD has always been at a fairly constant level among humans. Does anyone have any comments with regard to a theory that I have heard that we don't get it from cows but that both cows and humans are getting it from some other source?

P.S. I rarely eat beef, anyway!

British beef is NOT the safest in the world, it is just that the British government has brought in regulation that ensure that the true extent of the disease is masked.

There was a farmer whose cattle had never been fed animal products, but were fed solely on grass and vegetable feed. His herd developed BSE and the general opinion was that it was caused by organophosphates.

I lived on a farm for 13 years and ALL the farm workers over the age of 52 (eight of them) developed some form of brain/neurone illness. Also the shepherd who was only 39 became very ill. Again the general concensus of opinion was that it came from all the organophosphate sprays/sheep dip used on the farm.

I have two friends who both died young (aged 32 and 35) of cancer - they were both vegetarians. The vegetables we buy today (unless organic) are covered in toxic sprays, therefore a diet solely of vegetables exposes one even more.

I understand everyone's scepticism about food scares, but so many damaging things take years to manifest themselves. Take asbestos for instance - they eventually accepted that blue and brown asbestos causes cancer when large number of people developed it, but only recently have they proven that white asbestos is equally harmfull, but takes longer (20-30 years) to develop. However, in the meantime, people were exposing themselves to white asbestos, assuming it was safe.

Imagine discovering that in 10-15 year time enormous numbers of people suddenly develop CJD, but in the meantime we have all continuously exposed ourselves and our children to potentially contaminated meat, because we chose to believe the government of the day rather than the scientists.

I have heard similar views about organophosphates. Perhaps you should write an entry of wome form so that others can access your personal experiences?

'some form', obviously!

Going back to the start of the thread, I agree with you Slug.
By coincidence another h2g2 researcher was telling me today that our Minister of Agriculture, Nick Brown, questioned why he was being asked about the safety of beef because he's not a scientist.
It reminded me of the previous minister who couldn't understand the problem when organophosphates were found in carrots, 1cm below the skin. Since cooking them destroyed them.

Someone else will know more, but yes there was/is a farmer (from Devon) who made quite a fuss claiming the root of BSE was organo-phosphates. He made a very good case and eventually got an audience with the Minister (pre-Nick Brown?), but of course he was up against the received wisdom of the Government and other scientists. There was a TV programme on the subject, and I am sure there will be much on the web if you look.

I am not so sure that we know enough about Brain disease to define BSE properly. I feel it has become an easy place to categorise other types of brain disease that were previously undefined, or otherwise defined.

I have heard (urban myth?) that in France, for example, Farmers who have a 'wobbly' cow will take to a corner of a field, shoot it and bury it rather than get involved in the bureaucracy of reporting it. I am sure, also, that many other countries have different definitions of the disease that may or may not encompass the 'CJD' that we define in the UK.

The answer to the question 'Is beef safe?' is simple, good beef is safe, bad beef is not. If you buy beef that is fresh, from well bred and husbanded cattle that have been grass fed and properly slaughtered then will not have any problems of any sort, let alone CJD. If you buy frozen beefburgers from a cheap supermarket that may or may not have been correctly stored and transported, that may or may not come from properly slaughtered cattle, that may or may not have been vegetarian etc etc. then you have a very small chance of problems of many kinds, one infinitesimally small element of which will be a risk of CJD.

If you want cheap food, you run risks, if you are prepared to pay the price, enjoy!

I agree with you, Pheroneous, our European neighbours break all other 'food hygene' rules, therefore it is safe to assume they are breaking the ones on BSE - particularly as the implications are so serious. Therefore there is no question of eating French/German beef products such as sauages/salamis etc.

My next question is, what about chicken? There have been mumblings in scientific circles that chickens fed on contaminated products have developed similar symtoms to BSE. However, few chickens live long enough to fully develop the disease. The government have accepted the fact that a large percentage of mass-produced poultry is infected with salmonella along with an equally high percetage of eggs and yet show little or no interest in irradicating it. It is fairly safe to assume they hold the same cavalier attitude towards 'BSE' in chickens.