h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sorry to butt in. I'm new here, though I've been having a look round for a week or so before actually becoming a “researcher”. I was going put a tentative posting on that Youtube site, getting my feet wet, but then I saw something in the news that made me want to plunge in head first.

On the day of his return to Radio 2, Jonathan Ross was chatting on air with his producer, Andy Davies, about an old woman with Alzheimer's Disease who lives near Davies's Spanish villa. Davies said, “"Every time I see her now I have to run indoors. She's apparently got a thing for younger men. She must be about 80, I reckon." Ross suggested Davies have sex with the woman for “one last night before the grave.”

Let's just run over the facts. This woman has a horrific terminal illness. When Iris Murdoch contracted it, the BBC treated it as tragedy rather than broad farce. But then, this particular woman isn't famous, and is a Spanish national, so perhaps she doesn't deserve the same consideration. Davies, a lowly radio producer, has a second home in the sun (why not? BBC presenter Richard “Hamster” Hammond owns his own castle).

The corporation has a slogan “It's your BBC”. If it was really mine, its employees wouldn't be doing this sort of thing, but that's just my opinion. I think I'm entitled to a view, though; I pay these people's salaries.

There doesn't seem to be a middle course, here. As a Jonathan Ross/BBC supporter named Gordon d'Andilly commented on the News of the World website, "Oh for crying out loud! Can all these outraged sensitive souls just drop it now. Yes, we get the message you don't like Jonathan Ross, we understand you think the licence fee is too high, pointless, an outrage etc etc etc ...

"I am so bored by this false moral outrage by the same bunch of half-baked, slightly loony fruitcakes that crawl out of the woodwork every time something someone may find funny/offensive is aired ... there was very little wrong in September, there is nothing wrong now. Go away! Go back to reading the Daily Mail and the Watchtower and leave normal people alone."

Ignore me. I'll just go away and get a copy of the Watchtower.

Is Davies just a bog standard BBC producer? Or is he employed by Ross's production company? Ross is apparently making something like £6m pa on his BBC contract. Not just for the radio show of course, but I'd expect some of that to find its way to his right-hand man.

There is a lot more money going to presenters these days. The newsreaders and senior journalists are probably on something in excess of £1m. And as for the h2g2 editors, well...

Hi Ford Mondeo, and welcome to the merry-go-round.

I agree with you, that sort of callous sexual brutality veers from being in poor taste to an incitement to rape. It *should* be shocking, but the more it happens the less shocking it becomes. And that's the point at which my inner Daily Mail reader comes frothing to the foreground.

There was so much that was fascinating about the Brand / Ross debacle, not least that the consensus of people who posted in to Radio 1 was "oh for s sake, get over yourselves".

The whole thing was an example of the norms of specific small groups being applied to much larger groups of people. Niche vs Mainstream, if you like.

My inner Daily Mail reader's had enough of an outing this morning, so I won't give my opinion of Ross' and Brand's behaviour.

B

"incitement to rape" overstates my case. "veers from being in poor taste to being peer-permission for casual cruelty"

Thanks for the replies. I've calmed down a bit now and will go over and post a video.

What planet exactly is Ross on?

After being suspended without pay for 3 months you would think he had learnt something, clearly not. Perhaps if it was Ross's grandmother with the horrific disease he might not be so quick to mouth off!

Perhaps, but not for sure and you are suggesting hypocrisy where there is no real foundation for the insinuation.

That aside Ross doesnt need me to stick up for him even if he would be bothered about this and other mud slung at him.

The mud slinging at one person isnt the issue its the empty headed moralising and concocted outrage that gets my back up.

Ben, how the hell do you get from a quip which is meant to rub the salt of embarassment into the (tiny) "wounds" caused by previous encounters with the woman to be an encitement to casual cruelty?

Its sloppy sloganeering like this that actually detracts from gettting wider support for better treatment of women.

Where in the teasing of another man is the peer pressure to abuse an old woman? Or any woman? Its purile and stupid humour, like little boys teasing each other if they see a friend being kised by an aunt, a vestige of time when boys are scared of sex and sexuality. Yes the language is not pretty and someone could stretch its meaning to include incitement to rape.

When people ask me if Im hungry and I reply "I could eat a scabby headed baby" Where is the inciment to canabalism of babies scabby or even smooth headed ones?


NEWS FLASH....this is how some people talk. You might not like to hear it and might not like the fact that part of your lincece fee contributes to it being broadcast, but htose are the breaks....and with bloody good reason....

Its the way I talk....and I pay too. I deserve to be catered to and have my cultural references and choices reflected by the national broadcaster. People dont have to like it but they really should be able to justify why they attempt to deny airtime to other voices that they disagree with.

I dont like romantic novels and find that the expensive TV adaptations are wasted on me so I dont watch them. I think that some people who watch soaps have a distorted a view of reality and end up acting and thinking in ways that are unproductive for themselves and the people around them. I think that watching Wayne Rooney gob off at and harassing referees makes some kids beligerent towards authority....

I could go on at great length about the problems I preceive to be stemming from or being amplified by TV and radio and all of you lot are welcome to do so too.


Here's the thing though where is your evidence that your opinion is right? I mean I *think* all of these things and so the "truth" of them all seems self evident to me and Im guessing you guys think the same way about your concerns.

If any of you have seen "The Fisher King" you see the fictional results of an unfeeling character giving express instructions to kill other people. In the TV series of Hitchhikers the useless thrid of humanity is jettisoned by the rest.

I cant work out from where Im sitting if there is a great harm being done by Ross' callous comedy or if his outpourings mediates the feelings of people who might get more angry fed up and calloused if their thoughts werent echoed back by what they see and hear on TV and radio.

I only hope that if I do end up being one of the none too select band of people who become the "Disfusted of Tunbridge Wells" that I'll have something other than opinion based on personal preference to back up my calls to have other people censored or punished for what they say.

Surely the basis of harrassment, bullying, sexist/racist/homophobic feeling and casual abuse of the disabled, those who are different by choice or by twist of fate and the disadvantaged is actually in this kind of 'harmless' banter and conversation? It becomes normalised and acceptable because it's put in such a way that it can be justified as 'just a bit of fun' or similar.

Before you know it, somebody who doesn't understand, doesn't know better, will start to adopt these opinions and spout these comments without that subtle sense of how inapporopriate it could be.

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen (I've been known to have somewhat off-colour conversations,made and laughed at bad jokes etc. Most people have to some degree about someone!) I'm suggesting that broadcasting it at large is crossing the line between a private and understood off-colour joke and condoning unacceptable behaviour.

It'd be fine if we could be sure that everyone listening will understand the joke, and it's implications, and take responsibility for themselves to regulate their behaviour according to a considered moral code and not be swayed by casual cruelty (which it actually is, once in the public domain). But we cant. Thanks to those few who are ruining it for the ones who can!

"Perhaps if it was Ross's grandmother with the horrific disease he might not be so quick to mouth off!"

To be fair to the man, I've not seen any indications in any press reports that Ross knew that the woman in question had Alzheimers.

The producer knew. His wife told a reporter about the disease, saying it was sad.

It was also obvious to the meanest intelligence that the woman was disturbed.

PLEASE NOTE: SICK JOKE IN MIDDLE OF FIRST PARAGRAPH DO NOT READ IF EASILY OFFENDED. JOKE FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY IN THIS CONTEXT. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. THANK YOU.

"To be fair to the man, I've not seen any indications in any press reports that Ross knew that the woman in question had Alzheimers."

I believe this to be the case in which case it was (possibly) a poor taste joke which I have to say is mildly humourous if just in an 'old lady' context...the Alzheimers is ethically more dodgy if he knew about it...she wouldn't remember the night anyway( NOW!!!!! Can we please have reactions to that line I have just given? From a joke construction point of view: Good. From sickness point of view: erm...good. Being understanding of the terrible afflication: bad. But I could see Jimmy Carr making a similar joke. Last year I would have said Ross would have had the good sense not to make a joke like that on a Saturday morning...now...I am not so sure.)

Also, re: the Sach issue. The main issue I had with that was that it was bordering if not an illegal act under the act regarding telecommunications devices.

The 'old lady' thing is either bad taste (ear of the beholder) or a bit morally bad if he did know show had Alzheimers.

From my point of view I would go for the former. Just the same as if Ross/Brand had said the same things just on radio but not on the answerphone.

If anyone laughed and then went into moral outrage at the joke above (hopefully unyiksed!!!) then you need to think about how you view humour! As Jimmy Carr has said you either laugh or tut...but you can't do both!

Anyone who was just outraged at the joke...you read the warning!!!!

Ford-mondeo.

Thanks for the extra info. Did Ross know as well? It is pertinent to the discussion...I just want to know what level of outrage I need to wind myself up to.

Nope, I didn't laugh, but then I have my first ever Neurology department appointment on Thursday, perhaps there is a joke in there somewhere about forgeting it, hey I have to write everything down at moment so maybe there is.

Sort of my point. Jokes about any affliction, detrimental health issue, mental state etc are horrific to the wrong person.

In private (or relative private) my jokes, banter and conversations will contain a level of awareness and sensitivity to those around me, and will also be accompanied by my presence so if I upset or offend anyone, I'm there, on the spot, to apologise. Not the case if you're on a radio show etc.

You cant adjust your jokes or apologise for offence caused when you're so far removed from your audience. I've seen stand-up comics apologise when a joke in bad taste backfires, and they tend to be genuinely abashed (part of the risk game of being a stand-up is occasionally you WILL genuinely upset someone!) and that's where the humanity comes in. When you're completely disassociated from your audience because it's a one-way broadcast rather than an interactive experience, I believe you have to think twice before using that sort of humour so unabashedly.

>>Did Ross know as well? It is pertinent to the discussion...I just want to know what level of outrage I need to wind myself up to.<<

All I know is that the Producer's wife said the woman had Alzheimers.

Regarding the old lady's memory I think it's a good joke, and should be sent to sickipedia.org. On the other hand a nurse told me that people with dementia do "wake up" from time to time and look around, terrified. They find themselves sitting somewhere unfamiliar, fully clothed, with no idea how they got there, and they're scared. Doesn't bear thinking about, really.

Speaking of sickipedia, they had a joke yesterday that Suggs had become an advocate for gay rights and feminism, which was a case of Madness gone politically correct, which seems like a Radio Two kind of joke to me.

The world really has turned upside down.

Even worse, those with this horrible disease can realise, in the good times, how ill they have become. Imagine that happening in a place with 24 hour care with someone with no living relatives. You wake up and realise you are spending the rest of your life in a place that has to have a door alarm as you might wander off and straight infront of a car....

Indeed, Strangely Strange...hope things go well with your appointment etc...I think what you have said above is the reason people use black humour and inappropriate jokes sometimes to cope with what really is something terrible but laughing at some unidentified person can be laughing and trying not to think about the awfulness of it and that one might be there oneself sometime.

When I was a child I had an uncle die of it in his 50s.
A few years ago I was at Social Club and an older woman in her bedclothes wandered in and the woman incharge asked if I could keep the woman safe as she suffers from the disease, fortunately it was a place that didn't start laughing at the poor woman, she used to be a member who used the Social Club when well and regularly ends up back there confused. I think a relative of woman came and picked her up and took her away.
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I wouldn't be asked to look after the woman these days as can just about look after myself, let alone a distressed older lady. It is a difficult situation as confused woman wanted to leave but I couldn't let her go as at risk and might wander infront of a car or be attacked by those who would take advantage, and there are such people. Aparantly she is a very rich woman, it shows how this nasty disease knows no boundaries or cares about them. Fortunately she was quickly collected as getting quite aggitated and wanted to` leave the Social Club.

I think there are very few places that would start laughing if that happened these days.

We can only hope that stem cell research can bring some relief to the problem. Now that Obama has opened up state funding again more research will be possible in the US ratehr than just the privately funded work that Bush couldn't stop over the past 8years.