h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

In case you haven't seen it :-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3263373.stm

He essentially says, to my understanding, that unless you were out and about protesting about Saddam Hussein from the word go, you have no right to protest about GWB when he visits the UK. And if you do then you're just a victim of the currently fashionable anti americanism sweeping the UK.

Hmmmm, tactful and even handed anyway

Good old Jack 'Boot' Straw. Always ready to provide a laugh....
BCNU - Crescent

Is it anti-American to identify thier president for being without feck.

I think there is at least something in what Straw says, although this is a topic that I'm still trying to make up my mind about.

I don't think that his point is that if you weren't protesting against Saddam, you shouldn't protest about Bush. That would clearly be a fallacy.

Rather, I think his point is that some people have lost a sense of proportion about the US. Even on this site - generally a reasonable place - I've read at least one researcher compare the US to Nazi Germany. In my view, the US has a lot to answer for, and the Bush regime in particular. However, is the US really public enemy number one in global terms?

Might it be true that people have lost sight of some of the good that America has done and will continue to do?

Might it be true that some people are so worried about American power that they have become paranoid, and prefer to criticise and protest against the US rather than any number of nasty and brutal regimes? Much as I'd hate a pax Americana, I'd prefer it to a pax Talibania! I've seen the US compared to Nazi Germany by at least one researcher on this site. Have people lost a sense of proportion?

Do some people automatically assume the worst about US motives in a way that's not supported by the evidence?

I'm still trying to decide what to think....

Don't you have a right to protest in the UK?

Yes we do, but only in the places and at the times that we are allowed to do so.

are you extracting the michael?

No not at all. One of the features of not having any form of written constitution or bill of rights for our citizens, is that we have the right to do what ever the damn hell we like provided that it isn't against the law.

Now whoopie-do, we find that wandering around in Central London saying that George is a bit of dimwit can be construed as illegal under the terms of the various public order acts and probably anti-terrorism acts as well.

Orwell was from the UK wasn't he? I'm finding this all kinda creepy.

I really did think you were joking.

Next are £80 'chipped' passports. ID cards, contain fingerprint, iris biometrics and other info. Soon no visit to the (N.H.S. National Health service) social security, etc. etc. Without your I.D. card. - Excuse is other European countries have them, it will stop fraud, illegal workers.

UK world leader! - Yea in CCTV. You can't leave town without being seen. And when on the open road, more CCTV in the guise of 'Travel Master' travel info system, and they are on about putting speed detectors in those too. Never mind the 'cash machines - police use only '

Welcome to HM Prison United Kingdom.

Maybe the price of freedom is having inarticulate leaders?

"Welcome to HM Prison United Kingdom."

Jonny English!


er sorry, I loved that film.

What about visiting the UK? I was just talking with a sri lankan who loves his NZ passport and travelling anywhere.

Don't come on a Sunday, we're closed.

Otto, there is very little in what Jack Straw says. Of course people should have been protesting about Saddam, and they would have if he ever visited the UK after he became 'bad' to western eyes. There are any number of nasty and brutal regimes and when their leaders come to Britain there will be protests against them.

The US has done a lot of good, but it has done a lot of bad too. The US does what it thinks is in the US intrest, even if that undermines or removes rights from non-US citizens that US citizens enjoy - including but not limited to supporting brutal dictators, destabalising democratically elected governments and poisoning people.

Also, if you look at small parts of US policy you can see some similarities to some parts of nazi Germany - racial profiling, the fostering and proliferation of fear by the media, very little critisism of the leader by the media, invading of other countries for their recourses - but these are very limited views. Of course the provisions of the Patriot Bill and the Total Terrorism Awareness project would give them powers that the Gestapo would have envied, but as to if they would use it like the Gestapo would only constant vigilance will tell.

Pax Americana would be preferable to Pax Talibana, but neither is what we actually want. So we will protest. People may automatically assume the worst about the US but there is at least a lack of evidence that they are acting in other than their own self-intrest. The whole Iraq/Al Quida/Weapons of Mass Destruction malarky does not make them look like they were telling us the truth, so a bit of suspision may be warrented.

Also it doesn't matter who the protest is against, the fact that the government is, again, going to stop protests against a foreign leader should be concerning you more. Maybe next time when the leader of a nasty and brutal regime comes to Britain you will not be allowed to protest against them.

Well, a view from the dark side there Sorry about that and until later....
BCNU - Crescent

Longer reply later, but for now it's worth pointing out that it isn't illegal to protest in the UK, and that it won't be illegal to protest against Bush's visit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3264667.stm

I heard this morning that among the 100s of people comming with shrub are 5 chefs.

I know the connotation I get from that. How about you?

Okay, a longer response...

I don't disagree with much of what Crescent says. I'm not an apologist for the US, and I've been very critical of US behaviour on this site and elsewhere in the past. I'm very worried by the number of people in America who seem to think that there's a link between September 11th and Iraq. But on the other hand, I can't help feeling that getting rid of Saddam was a very good thing, even though I do feel lied to about the WMD issue.

However, I thought I had to post to defend some of what Straw has to say. There is an overreaction in some quarters about the US at the moment. The burden of proof is an interesting question, but there are at least some people around who have a deep ideological conviction that doesn't really engage with inconvenient evidence.

I also think that to compare anyone with the Nazis is dangerous, and is not something to be said casually. It's a comparison that shouldn't be worn out by casual over-use. I think it's worth stopping and thinking very carefully about the full horror of what the Nazis were and what they did before using comparisons. If the US has a poor media and is restricting freedom and bypassing the basic rule of law (all of which I think are happening), then by all means say so, but let's leave the Nazi comparisons out of it.

Many people have said that - that if we did not protest against Saddam Hussein's behaviour, we have no right to protest against the war! That's a stupid argument...
Our local paper had an item about Dubya's visit - he will have a retinue of 650 people (including 5 chefs)a Sikorski helicopter, a BlackHawk and of course, Air Force One. TB said he'd be taking Dubya to his local for a pint. What, with 250 secret service guys?

If you're thinking of Dubya, there's the Patriot Act - I wouldn't say that's exactly freedom!

Perhaps I should repost this here as it now seems approate.

This is from two days ago.

"I was reading teletext and came accross a story and decided to look it up.

people saying life is better in Iraq need cranial irrigation.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...18A-0044-47E5-AFFB-B93773B4B141.htm

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackag...topNews&storyID=401926&section=news

Speaking out against occupation gets you handcuffed and gagged. Hmmm it kinda puts a perspective on all those rejoicing for the cameras in afghanastan and Iraq.

I wonder how zagreb would explain it away..."

Excellent, very relevant, Apparition.