h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Simple either/or question: is condemnation of homosexuality a right-wing or left-wing attitude?

SoRB

It's right-wing.

Right-wing these days, but I think it was just *bad* in the good old days. Why do you ask?

Comdemning homosexuality is generally a traditionalist viewpoint, often associated with religion, so I'd say right wing.

But am aware that the Lib Dems don't exactly have a brilliant track record on this, while the Conservatives voted for gay civil unions.

That probably depends on wether you think politics can be divided into something so simple.

A false dichotomy, perhaps.

The 'traditional' left reflected working class society. Homophobia would have been the norm - as it was in all strata - but, obviously, with instances of tolerance. Within the Labour party, Tom Dryden was a notoriously colourful figure. Chris Smith was the first out gay MP. But Peter Mandelson went back into then closet, even though before he was an MP he and Reinaldo had appeared in a Sunday Times 'Our Lovely Home' feature...and he was re-outed on live TV by a gay Tory ex-MP. But nobody much cared gay Stephen Twigg won bisexual Michael Portillo's seat in '97 (but who can forget the look on Portillo's face ).

The traditional right had firm moral views and would have condemned homosexuality. Eg. Single men applying to be constituency candidates would have been met with suspicion. Such attitudes still remain, despite 'Dave' Cameron's protestations. *On the other hand* - Thatcher neither understood nor cared about sexuality.

Also the modern right wing has a libertarian element. Think of Pym Fortuyn.

Then at the extreme end there's the Nazis On Radio 4's 'Any Questions' recently, Norman 'Polecat' Tebbit insisted that the Nazis were left wing. They were, after all, National *Socialists*. There we have it out of his own mouth: he's to the right of Joseph Goebbels )

Homosexuality was not exactly tolerated by the Soviets (although the stars of the Bolshoi were afforded some licence). This attitude persists in modern-day, left-wing Cuba. On the other hand - it was the influence of the CPSA that led to non-discrimination on grounds of sexuality being written into the South African constitution.

In summary: Really the dichotomy is between (small L) liberal and (small C) conservative. These partly - but not wholly - align with modern Left- and Right-wing political organisations.

No - not Dryden. Driberg.

<>

The only problem with that view, is that religion is not inevitably right wing.

Absolutely true! Anothern false dichotomy well spotted.

Interestingly, though...some religious people who have a sound social conscience on many issues can have a blind spot as regards sexuality and come out with some of the most disgraceful, twisted nonsense.

>> Norman 'Polecat' Tebbit insisted that the Nazis were left wing. They were, after all, National *Socialists*. There we have it out of his own mouth: he's to the right of Joseph Goebbels <<

Along with everyone else except perhaps the Communist Party, Edward.

RF

Certainly not inevitably, the whole religion/traditionalist/right-wing/gay bashing thing is a generalisation (we can see some correlation of these things, and there may be a causal link), but also an example of package-belief (I belong to this group therefore I believe these things, which is obviously a backwards way of doing things) that can be observed in a significant minority.

Meme clusters, anyone?

"some religious people who have a sound social conscience on many issues can have a blind spot as regards sexuality and come out with some of the most disgraceful, twisted nonsense"

Some people regard it as unfortunate that religious people use their superstition to justify their hatred of people they don't like the sound of, on the ground that it's a shame because they "have a sound social conscience on many issues".

I, on the other hand, regard it as a shame that the fiction they run their lives around gives them some positive aspects. Religion would be much easier to wipe out if it were not for the fact that the ignorant superstitionists are not *just* nasty homophobic racist scum, but also do a lotta work for charridee and don't like to talk about it.

SoRB

Why do you ask, SoRB?

B

I was in conversation with a particular bigot, and mentioned their right wing views. They denied that they were right wing. I got to wondering - is it just me that thinks of homophobia as being something right-wingers do? Am I just being idealistic thinking that left-wingers are by definition more tolerant?

It seems that it was a bit of both. While my interlocutor is undeniably a right winger, regardless of whatever self-deluded ranting they may claim otherwise, it seems that left-wing politics is not necessarily an indicator of tolerance. Politics is obviously not a one-dimensional continuum, and even if it were, tolerance is something that seems to peak slightly to the left of the middle, rather than increasing as one moves away from the boot-boy right wing views of someone like Della.

SoRB

Well, those sort of problems arise when you try to use such simple terms to define someones political opinions. And no Della-baiting please.

Moi?

SoRB

Hmmm. 'I'm not a racist, but...' springs to mind. Like it's alays said of Enoch Powell...he wasn't a racist, but he thought that black people should stay in 'their own country'. Sure, like 'I'm not sexist, so long as women stay in the kitchen.'

'I'm not a homophobe...but I wouldn't want a homosexual to marry my daughter.'





btw...apparently Tebbit repeated his 'The Nazis were left wing' tosh in yesterday;s Torygraph.

"I wouldn't want a homosexual to marry my daughter"

What, even if she really loved her?

SoRB

Good point well made. You're talking to someone who once had an anti Section 28 letter published in The Glasgow Herald demanding that his children have the right to grow up feeling comfortable whatever their sexuality. At the time I was working with a guy who was active in 'Christian Families Concern', and I really enjoyed ing him off.

Oh..wait...that ing is a little ambiguous