h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This question arose out of the discussion on vibrators; as it would

So - is a women-only Sex-Shop good for the sisterhood, or bad because it is sexist?

What about positive descrimination, and glass ceilings?

Can women have it both ways, these days, and is that fair?

What do YOU think? (Telling us your gender may be helpful here, or you may prefer to keep that a secret).

a post-feminist woman called Ben

depent hopw rabidly femanist you are. if you take it to far it is but if you just beleve in true equolity not wimen should be paide more because they where walked on for years ect but tre equolity (for me this incloods doors chairs and paying bills on dates) then it is not sexism

I've never been to a sex shop but I'd imagine that some of them tend to be very 'dirty-old-man' orientated. A female-only sex shop (or at least one designed to appeal to that section of the market) would be a good thing as it could be more focussed on a woman's sexual pleasure rather than selling tacky dildos and videos aimed at men. They could also provide a much more comfortable environment for the female patrons. I wouldn't say that these shops are sexist as they are appealing to a large section of the market who may be turned away by some sex shops for both genders.

The owner of Early to Bed writes an excellent, balanced sex column in 'Punk Planet' 'zine. Although her site says it's for both genders, it definitely has the right idea of being pro-woman and unintimidating. http://www.early2bed.com/ (don't know how long this'll last).

I think that while positive discrimination has occured - a man a few weeks ago who was forced to wear a tie to work - the problem of discrimination against women is still there. I often wonder the true extent of positive discrimination, and how much it is exaggerated by the male/white/straight people who claim victimisation.

I don't know about having it both ways. I suppose it depends on the specific situation, but then it becomes more of a personal thing.

I certainly believe in equal pay for equal work, Bob, regardless of gender, race or any other factor you can think of.

B

*post feminist woman checking in*

well, there is a certain amount of schadenfreude in watching the men get the treatment women used to have (but I have to say that the tie wearing one was stupid, the women should have been told to smarten up)

I'd go in a woman only sex shop, the ones here are very hard core (there is porn everywhere, so the sex shops are really pretty scary) and mostly full of men (yep, I went in one, don't ask) And I think that some guys might feel more comfortable in a male only establishment too.

Positive discrimination is something I'm always in two minds about. I mean, if we don't push some women into top positions (making sure they're capable first) then there are no role models for the girls growing up now. However, that can lead to resentment by men (and other women). But then again, my other self kicks in again and I just think "tough luck, we've put up with it for millennia".

I'm ... well, I'm ... ok here it is. I'm 39, which means I grew up in the 60s watching women forging ahead, paid attention in the 70s when they made better progress, the 80s when women grew bigger penises than the men and acted worse (didn't really like that bit) or was that the 90s... no, that was when they started vamping it up again and really deciding that women should and could have it all. Damn their eyes - it's pushed a lot of women into believing that they (we) have to have - and do - it all. Ho hum.

Anyway, the point is that I work with a 25 year old who laughs when I mention feminism. But she's young, blonde, educated-ish, lives in her own flat, drives her own car, goes on holiday alone if she wants, chooses her own boyfriend and sleeps with him if she wants, and goes back to her place if she doesn't. And she won't accept that it is the women who made sacrifices in previous decades that allow her to do this.

Or am I making too much of a big deal out of it all?
(stressed full-time working mother of two who wishes she didn't have to)

eek... sorry, didn't mean to drone on and on.

in answer to the original question is probably yes.

I diddent say you where, and I agree compleatly, but some femanist (I know I have met them) bakleve that wimmen should have more pay just for being wimen,

Absolutely not! Bob.

Nice post Sho - I am much the same age as you, with most of the same thoughts.

B

that sounds fair

Heterosexual Male, in Vancouver, Canada. (Sounds like the start to one of those *Dear Playboy* letters....)

We have several types of what you might call *Sex Shops* here. Most are upper end (if you will forgive the unintended pun) and multisexual. They are clean, fun places where people go to either have a laugh and just look (the first time) or where they can get advice and *gear* to spice up their sex life. Then there are more specific ones that tend to centre in our two gay communities. They again are not gender specific but you tend to stay away not for homophobic reasons but that you may not feel altogether *welcome*. The last is the down-and-dirty type which tends to cater to a rougher crowd (quite literally as in rough sex) and those seeking the fringes of pornography. I do not know of any that are gender specific here, although we do have things like that. A perfect example is fitness centres (we have many due to our rainy winter) which have all-male and all-female versions. Again, there are *all-gay* versions of that as well (we have a very large, well integrated gay community here). One other notable exception is an old and conservative *men's club* which survived the feminist *purges* of the 60s and 70s. It suffered no more than a few occupations and still has it's stodgy rules today.

As to the question, isn't the phrase *feminism* one of those broad-based descriptions that still defy exact definition? It ranges from militant lesbian activism to people who just want to be *more* equal, wouldn't you say?

cl - are you *sure* we can't do a tour of the sex shops of Vancouver? In the interests of social anthroplogy, you understand.

And I agree with your comment about feminism. It seems to mean entirely different things to different people. A dangerous word, in my experience.

B

yea allot of men (I was inclooded in this for a while) when they here the word femanism think of the bra burning, chant shoutinf men are all basterds no exeption people.
to me know feminism is a very confusing term, I am not really shure what it means to me.

I agree with Sho and the following statement by clzoomer:
It ranges from militant lesbian activism to people who just want to be *more* equal, wouldn't you say?

Any idea taken to an absurd degree becomes radical.
It is sad to me the word feminism seems to be a bad word to younger women.

Time will tell. When the 25 year old (like you spoke of Sho) is 40-50 see if she is equal in pay,position,benefits and whether she is valued more or less compared to the men whom entered the work force at the same time/same field/same work record and experiences. Also how many serious incidents of sexual harrassment in their career affecting choices, compared to 30-40 years ago.

I tend to believe that whatever definition we give the movement, it's effects have been on the whole positive. The negative ones are of course trumpeted by the *opposition* and we still have farther to go. The question is where and how far. That is the scary thing to younger women I think. As to whether they know they constantly remember what got them this far, probably no more than I do about what I am doing now (having a conversation with people all over the world).

Sorry, missed a *should* between *they* and *constantly*. Stumbletyping.

As its been said..whether feminism is sexism or not depends on how far its taken,as surely as soon as women start
acting/thinking they are better than men,that defeats the whole purpose as the ideas arose from double standards in the first place!
We shouldnt get better jobs,better pay,better anything in fact just for being women..all should go on merit..and we should just get the respect n equal treatment deserved.
One thing that does get the me is the way a lot of men twist the "new" equality thing to their advantage..expecting us to go out to work full time and still take total responsibility for the children,home etc! surely eqality means them doing their half too..not just lumping more on us.

That is a fascinating point. Do you think that the supposed inherent *mothering* instinct in women should make them the primary caregiver for children? I say supposed because it isn't universal but does exist.
Is the *twist* the men put on it wrong because it stresses equal work at work while ignoring equal work at home (the system as it exists that ignores the importance of that work at home)? Or is it that the work at home (with children) is expected to be Matriarchal while the work at work is expected to be Patriarchal?

The whole matriarchal/patriarchal thing is sexism as its worst..theres no such thing as womens work or mens work..were all equally capable after all! n if men are so much better than us ,as some (like my dad) still believe..surely they can manage to work the hoover while we sit on our backsides being dumb women!..not that i feel strongly about this or anything!
As for childcare..just because we get a release of chemicals from the brain that causes a feeling of bonding with the chiid ,doesnt mean we come with a built in handbook! irst time muums are just as clueless as first time dads..n the way i see it if a mns prepared to do his bit in creating a child and take half the credit foor the wonderful little person he should be prepared to his half of the caring too.

And either parent can have equally a good/strong relationship with the child if the effort is put in.

Its all in the genes, the way that the sexes have evolved over the centuries.

Men tend to be more single minded. They pick a vocation and concentrate all their energies on that one thing alone to the exclusion of everything else. Evolution has made them that way. Tracking that wooly mammoth for dinner required all ones concentration and you couldn’t afford to have your mind elsewhere.

Women tend to be more multi-tasking orientated. Able to devote time to a lot of different tasks at the same time. Feeding the baby, cooking the dinner, keeping the fire lit and a thousand other tasks.

Consequently men tend to be outstanding at one single activity and pretty rubbish at everything else, whereas women are pretty good at a whole range of activities but not outstanding at any particular one.

This is where the glass ceiling comes in as to reach the top in any profession requires a degree of single mindedness that very few woman have. The concept of the absent minded processor is an example. So much effort is on the task in hand, he has nothing left in order to remember where he put his glasses.

Of course, there are exceptions to this. Margaret Thatcher is a case in point.

Stuart