h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Colin Powell could'nt hold a candel to Jack Straw, although he was not been seen lately. He did get a mention when Tony Blair was exiled from Britain, that he was bored or something

In reply to Apparition, Post 52:
*Is this to be taken seriously?* Well that's up to you
*The two pages referenced are from one of the sides involved in the conflict.* What? Just because they are both Isreali?
OK just for you:
http://www.nad-plo.org/
Rod
Oh and btw you do know what a search engine is? If you can find a pro-Palestinian site that is fit for general consumption then do let me know

"The Israelis just asked to have military people among the investigators, they didn't specify Israeli military. How the hell did you read that into it?"

Well, I was feeling cynical and tired

Seriously, I assumed that if the Israeli's wouldn't let the international community take a look that they'd use their own people. "We're investigating our own side" is quite a popular option when you want to be seen to be doing something.

Are they letting international people in? If they are asking for a "broader team of people" it could be to "put off" for a bit so they can, erm, get rid of some stuff they don't want the international community to see.

And they've now changed their minds again, despite the fact that General Nash (US military) was in the party.
Apparently the objection is that those who work for the humanitarian agencies (ie the red cross etc) are presumed to have an automatic pro-Palestinian bias.
Which tells me rather more about the Israeli's. and particularly Sharon and the Army, than it does about the Red Cross.

And they've now changed their minds again, despite the fact that General Nash (US military) was in the party.
Apparently the objection is that those who work for the humanitarian agencies (ie the red cross etc) are presumed to have an automatic pro-Palestinian bias.
Which tells me rather more about the Israeli's. and particularly Sharon and the Army, than it does about the Red Cross.

The USA government think they rule the world, getting into people's problems. They should go away or get some help or actually know what is going on before they interfere.

An eyewitness statment by a Palestinian Leader captured in Jenin.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html


...also the IDF filmed the whole operation in Jenin.

Whatever happened to reasoned debate in these forums?

>Whatever happened to reasoned debate in these forums?

The problem is that we lacked an advocate for the Israelis until you came on. I'm non-commital. I'm sympathetic to the Israelis, but only to a point.

There are some interesting points in the CCN article. The condemnations have been awfully one sided. I've been curious about why Europeans and liberals seem to be so pro-Palestinians, and their silence on their terrorist tactics.

Wel, no more than Europe wondered about US anti-Arab bias since way before 11/9, which is the excuse for it being used at the moment.
Neither side in this conflict is perfect. Both have, deliberately and inadvertantly, targeted civilians in the pursuit of political gains.

I don't carry a brief for either side, but the continued Israeli procrastination about the investigation doesn't make them look good.

Why are Europeans pro-Palestinian and silent about terrorist tactics?

Well, I've addressed some of this in my previous postings here.

Personally, I think my views are perfectly balanced and even-handed , but those who are pro-Israeli think I'm pro-Palestinian.

I suppose it's because we're less convinced about the divine right of Israel to do what it likes. Israel has a right to exist, but only because of the large number of people in the area who want to be part of Israel. It has become legitimate through immigration. It has defeneded itself against aggression, and has legitimate security concerns against those who do not recognise its right to exist.

But it's equally clear that there must be a Palestinian state. The Palestinians have been very badly treated for a very long time, by the Israelis and by other Arab states, who have generally shown precious little interest in the cause of the "brothers" while they thought they could get at Israel in other ways.

Suicide bombing against civilians is unexcusable, but I think many people don't see a difference between that and at least some of the actions of the Israeli "Defence" Force. All are culpable.

Illegal settlements on Palestinian land have robbed the rightful owners of access to land and (vitally) water, and the expansion of settlments showed no sign of stopping. One settler was quoted in The Guardian (UK) as saying something like "when will these arabs realise that this land is ours?" It isn't.

There is no military solution to the problem. People of sense on both sides need to sideline the nutters on both sides. A stable Palestinian state will, with proper support and properly constituted, satisfy the aspirations of the majority and sideline the fundamentalists. Give the people a sense of security, freedom and prosperity - give them something to lose - and the Middle East will be a safer place.

Otto.

"The problem is that we lacked an advocate for the Israelis until you came on" Any Palestinian people in here? "Personally, I think my views are perfectly balanced and even-handed , but those who are pro-Israeli think I'm pro-Palestinian." It seems in forum the you either have to be Pro-Israeli or you're labelled/assumed to be pro-Palestinian. Or in the words of two bit European and or Liberal. I'm not european and I'de like you know your conotation when saying "Liberals" "What? Just because they are both Isreali?" Yes, that's it exactly rod. "If you can find a pro-Palestinian site that is fit for general consumption then do let me know" Is that to your opinion. In a situation like this balance means quoting the sources of neither side" "OK just for you: http://www.nad-plo.org/" Those of you who read back will see that this is someone not pro-Israili being assumed to be pro-Palastine. "Whatever happened to reasoned debate in these forums?" Reasoned debate will return, EtherZev, when people who dissagree with Israil stop being labelled and assumed to support terrorism.

ROFLMAO

To paraphrase Trinity of Matrix fame – Consider This!

When the Arab armies failed to conquer Israel in 1948 there was a period of relative peace. Yes incidents did occur, sometimes minor sometimes not. And it was no means all sweetness and light. But for 19 years Israelis and Palestinians lived side by side in towns and villages in this region.

Israel stands accused of being an apartheid and racist state. Yet 1.1 million Arab Israeli citizens fight with the IDF, elect their own MK’s to the Knesset, and are represented in Arab majority areas as Mayors in many mixed cities and towns. The Christian population consists of Israeli citizens ethnically derived from India, Japan and many other countries. Nelson Mandela’s grandson lives and studies in Israel. The problems that arise were and are the socially domestic problems of any democracy. Taxes, health, education et al.

Israel has repeatedly stated that she has no desire or intention to administer the 3million Palestinian Arabs currently living in the Territories. The recent Beirut Arab Summit has a peculiarly phrased fallout. In their discussion on the boycotting of Israeli trade and goods they make constant reference to “ the re-occupied” territories. Re-occupied? How do you re-occupy something you already “occupy”. I can cross my legs but I can’t sit in my own lap.

Colin Powell is a diplomat well versed in the ways of his world of dipplo-babble. But in the Middle East where “nuanced” speech needs to be understood in the context of cultural, religious, and historical concepts, what is not said or obliquely referred to can be as crucial as statements presented for the media feeders. But an accompanying Jewish advisor attracts calls of overwhelming Jewish influence in the Bush Administration. Who is he supposed to have as an advisor, Robert Mugabe maybe?

The problem is Arafat. If the Palestinians ceased all so-called resistance to-day, they would have their state to-morrow. Arafat’s paranoid, Pharaonic ambitions have been the problem since 1967. The nepotism within the Palestinian Authority (his brother Dr. F. Arafat is director of the Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance service- ring any bells?) is well understood by all the foreign governmental administrations.

The UN that unelected, undemocractic –arbiter-of-world’s-welfare-and-morals organization has chosen its side. In doing so it breaches not only its own Mission Statement but also many of its own protocols, and thereby stands to lose much of its credibility.

Ok – End of Rant. I’ll just dig this bunker a little deeper.



Footnote:

The Jewish populations of Jerusalem and Hebron have lived there in continuous occupation for four millenia - got that - four thousand years! Half of Israel's current population of 5.8 million are Jews who have never lived anywhere but Middle Eastern countries - EVER.

Oh! my bowl of aching petunias.

"Half of Israel's current population of 5.8 million are Jews who have never lived anywhere but Middle Eastern countries - EVER."

What do you mean by this? How many Palestinians have lived anywhere but the Middle East - ever? I think pointing out that half of the Israeli poplulation doesn't really belong there does little to strengthen your case. So does calling the UN wrong because they want to make sure no atrocities have been committed in Jenin.

Theanthrope,

Most, but not all, of the Palestinian people are a mixed population who moved to the region in the last 150 years. Over 140 different languages were spoken in Palestine in 1931. Ethnic origins include,but are not limited to, Chechens, Albanians, Armenians, Syriac-Chaldeans, Sudanese, Eqyptians,Arabs and some Europeans from the Russo-Turkic Wars who stayed on. The are now part of the region's demographic, and have an equal claim, but not a dominant one.

The UNISPAL section on the UN website records all this.

The current criticism of Israel's position on the Jenin inspection fails to report a couple of the causes to the delay:

1. Israel asked for military analysts to be part of the team

2. That while the team is in the neighbourhood, would they please do the same examination of the Dolphinarium bombing, deaths caused by suicide bombers, and damage done to Israel's infrastructure.

Sounds morally equivalent to me.

With regard to the UN, their subsidiary organisations UNWRA etc rotate their sitting members periodically. A quick peek will reveal that there is a majority Arab/Muslim voting bloc in these organisations, who consistently vote as a consolidated bloc. Hardly democratic. The UN operates by a proxy democratic vote from the Member States who are democracies, but not from countries who are ruled from the top, and who have a political agenda which may be unacceptable to the citizens of said democratic countries. Security Council Resolutions are enforceable at International Law. General Assembly resolutions are not.

When I vote in Australia I vote for Australia. The UN does not require its country members to advise their citizens of the effect of the treaties etc that member countries are a party to. Consequently said citizens (like me) are unaware of the effects, either beneficial or malign, that the flow-on effects of these changes bring about, and nor can they then object. It is, in effect, a dilution of democratic sovereignty.

This is why most vetoes come from the US, Australia, Canada etc.
Large demographics in these countries object to this encroaching world totalitarian view.

I am not alone. (Suitably dramatic music accompanies this pronouncement. - Just a Joke - OK)

rod "ROFLMAO " I guess this means you have no argument?, not that I'm saying you had much of one to begin with.

"Half of Israel's current population of 5.8 million are Jews who have never lived anywhere but Middle Eastern countries - EVER."

You have no jewish immigrants "EVER"? no american jews or european jews ect...

So large democracies rule the UN? I'm writing from a nation with a very small population that at one point in the 1990's headed the UN security council. Why do you speak that way of an organisation that you are a part of, why stay in that organisation?

Anyone else think this has gotten a little off topic? *thinks of the bush called sharon a man of peace forum*

Oh dear I think you've definitely got the wrong end of the stick there Apparition. I just couldn't contain myself after reading this: >"OK just for you: http://www.nad-plo.org/" Those of you who read back will see that this is someone not pro-Israili being assumed to be pro-Palastine.< Who me? ROFLMAO Rod

>Colin Powell could'nt hold a candel to Jack Straw<

No, but I'd like to, if he'd stand still long enough...
I mean, he made Michael Howard looklike a reasonable home secretary. Mind you, Blunkett's worse.

Alistair Cooke, in his 'Letter from America' had this to say about the situation in the M.E and U.S:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/letter_from_america/newsid_1931000/1931123.stm
Mr Cooke has been a correspondent for the BBC for many, many years.
Share and enjoy
Rod

As usual, Cooke talks more sense than most of the world's media combined, particularly his conclusion.