h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

That's the bloke Thanks

Surely this is indicative of the self - self - self world we currently inhabit ?

Ramsey is a good chef, but a totally incompetant man manager - I suspect he knows it - and so gets stressed when faced with personell issues. Obviously to be a good chef he is a highly efficient task manager. Unfortunately the 2 often get confused - because the team is successful the manager is seen as competant - this is not always so - certainly in my work at the moment I would suggest the team was succeeding despite the boss.

The main question feels a bit like the prisoners dilemma problem (Two prisoners have been asked to rat on their mate, if they both stay quiet they both get minor sentances if they both talk they are both screwed and if one talks he gets off free and the other is screwed.)

If nobody in the world was a bully it'd be a much nicer place to live, but given that some people are going to be bullied and some are going to be bullies it'd probably be nicer to be a bully. (Though I say that from the perspective of having only been bullied)

But if everyone were taught to bully everyone else the world would be a much worse place to live. It seems its a parents duty to society to raise a gentle child but its their duty to their child to ensure he/she isn't bullied. I can't imagine its easy to do both at once.

Maybe the problem isn't what the parents are doing (because they always work hard and seem to take the flak for everything) but the way society reacts to bullies.

Anyone whos met me generally says I'm quite nice, but people who know me know I've a bit of a temper. I have the broken chair and the hole in my wall to prove it. Point is I occasionally got into trouble when misc. bully #1 manages to push me a bit far and I attempted to remove part of his anatomy with a hockey stick. Eventually I am persuaded by my teachers to come and talk to them whenever I feel I'm allowing myself to become angry.

Sometime later misc. bully #2 starts smashing shuttlecocks at me during P.E. No we wern't playing, neither of us were on the court. So I go to my teacher and explain that this has happened and I want this person removed so that I can get on with enjoying the game (badmington is my second favorite sport next to fencing) the response I got was to ignore it. Anyone whos played badmington knows that a shot thats smashed into you doesn't hurt much especially when the person doing it isn't very good - however I imagine its apparent to most people that it is also impossible to ignore a group of people following you around doing it every minute or so. I tried to exaplin this to said pe techer and his response amounted to 'go away I don't want to deal with you'

I did

He didn't have to.

My school has 1 less badmington racket.

Point is my parents couldn't have done anything to stop the bullying. The only reason the bully wasn't hurt was because he had the reactions to block with his own racket. This needs to be delt with or I can see us living in a world where the only way for a parent to stop their child being bullied is to bring them up to hit the other guy first.

btw did someone say something about me needing to change the first paragraph of the Forum? I was going to say something about that but I got caught up in the argument.

I think I'm the only one who mentioned the first paragraph, and that was when I was asking what Woodpigeon's intentions for this thread were; I referred to the fact that the wording of the paragraph made more than one type of discussion possible. That's only a problem if it's not supposed to; certainly I don't regard it as one.

It's not a problem to me. This has been a fascinating discussion so far. Also, I just want to make it clear that I am *not* in favour of bullying. I am also, in addition, not in favour of the glorification of bullies, which is something I'm beginning to see around me. This was the motivation for starting this conversation.

I'm not entirely sure that the two situations are linked. I think that those adults who are bullies (I'll limit this to those I've met or heard of) are those that are bad managers. They seem to be bullies because they are in situations where they have to manage other people, and they aren't really up to the mangement aspects of their job.

In schools people are bullied for different reasons - I was bullied at school and it was entirely my own fault. I just didn't have the ability to make friends and I completely overeacted to small insults which was just normal mickey taking.

I remember society telling me that I was good and the bullies were bad, but I thought that everyone hated me, so therefore the world must be bad. But really it was just me. Until I realised that there was something wrong with the way I related to people then I wouldn't have changed.

As has already been mentioned, there is a difference between task related bullying & personal bullying. Whereas one might tolerate the former, the latter is certainly not to be condoned. Unfortunately some people in management will be bullies regardless of any management training they've received.

I don't watch TV programmes that depend on aggression for entertainment, because I don't find them enjoyable. But aren't they an extension of laughing at someone slipping on a banana skin - we're so glad it's not us. May be combined with the British love of the underdog.

What I think we need to teach children is to be confident & assertive in a non aggressive way. That should help stop bullies getting their own way.

Hi Teasswill,

Well said.

I think also that our society needs to become much less tolerant of bullying behaviour in general. We need to be able to identify it, and to stop it quickly where it occurs. Bullys can still use explanations like "well I bring in the money, don't I?" or "It gets results, doesn't it?" to justify their behaviour. The end should not justify the means in the world we live in today.

Woodpigeon

Oh okay, I just forgot what it was that was said about the para. fine by me then - anyhting that can be termed discussion is welcome here

Hi Acid - I think we might be talking about 2 different things. RJ was talking about the first entry in this thread. Are you talking about the 1st para in the Forum page?

Z

It almost certainly wasn't just you. From what I remember of school there are some people who enjoy bullying others and those who don't fit in are easy targets. Schools and employers both seem ineffectual in dealing with bullies so I think we need to teach children to be able to deal with bullies without aggression or violence. Wish I knew how you did that.

schools may be incompetent at dealing with bullies, but they are now required to do so.

with employers it is even worse, because is I work for someone, and the bullying takes the right form, and nothing is done about it by the company, then they can be liable for a lot of compensation in the right circumstances.

as a company, having a policy of ignoring bullying is no longer an option, especially if you employ more than a few people.

I don't think schools can deal with bullies. The society of schoolchildren is one from which adults, especially teachers are excluded. When I was bullied at school by a thug who quite defnitely enjoyed making others suffer the school made efforts to deal with it, but it was the thugs older brother who finally put a stop to it.

As for bullying at work it still goes on. I wasn't a victim but I saw it occur in the civil service and there aren't many organisations in the UK any bigger. Its easy to have a policy against bullying but like Health & Safety regulations these things are often just window dressing.

We should teach our children to be polite, but not subservient - and to report any bullying. Any teacher who fails to support my child when bullied will get a visit from me - if that doen't work they get a visit from Mrs Disorganised.

Most bullies are easily dealt with in a one to one situation, they rely on the crowd for their recognition. Sadists are a different matter, not all bullies are cowards - I met one who just liked hurting people. (I mean REALLY liked) We stopped him bullying our group, but I suspect he just went and found easier victims.

there are plenty of schools where they can indeed deal with bullies, but the simplistic methods prefered by ignorant teachers don't work.

I mean, just telling the bully that he or she has been reported just makes the problem worse.

the effective methods involve making use of the fact that most bullying is not done by the eldest children (there are of course exceptions) and uses this fact to get the elder children to police the younger bullies.

They also teach the elder children involved effective methods of dealing with the bully.

as for bullying at work, if it is the boss who is the problem then there is little you can do in the long run but move to another company. If enough employees do this, then the company ends u with a high staff turnover and low staff retention, which makes it much more expensive to employ people.

in all other cases, you make sure that reports of the problem go up through the chain of command, so that the bully's boss gets to know about it, and keep detailed records of what you said to who, so that if the bully's boss did nothing, you can tell his bos exactly what information you gave him, and how little he did about it.

Unions are also effective at getting action, especially if you are a member of a minority (religion, race, sexual orientation, ehtnic group, etc).

again, in the long run the only move you can make if nothing is done is to resign the job, sending full details of the problem, who you told, and how little was done about it to all the people you informed, including the boss of the company.

They don't need many letters saying "dear boss, I am leaving this company due to bullying by (person), and the complete incompetence of the following people (included list) in dealing with it when it was reported to them".

If you can also get sick notes from your doctor because of the stress, and include photocopies, then this helps as well.

bullying works in the shadows, and the best way of dealing with it is to shine a bright light on it.

Good ideas

Doesn't the social norm needs to change so bystanders do not tolerate it and take some responsibilty for being a witness. Not isolated vigilantes but a social norm.

It does not help that Politicians bully.
Seems if B. Clintons Presidency helped to change the definition of sex- Bushs may help redefine acceptance for bullying and righteousness judgement and indignation.
Need a good reason? Make one up, do not worry about consequences and no need to make plans for after.

A bully gets by with having power over another when they do not feel their own sense of power and neither does the victim. It can be two sides of the same coin just acted out in opposite ways.

The bullys strength and the victims loss is compounded when there are silent witness and no hope of protection and no outrage expressed. The victims are further blamed for their situation.
Standing by and doing nothing while someone is bullied is just as bad.

Seems like teachers used to take more control on school property. Did they become afraid or apathetic and stop interfering? Do they have no support to back them up?

I do not think we can allow it in grade school then expect it to dissapear or that the coping skills are magically learned.
The older people get the more likely they are to subcribe to ;if you cannot fight them ;join them A contagious attitude that may seem easier but is not in the long run.

It has been my experience that all bullies are cowards.

At school I was relentlessly bullied because I was the FAT kid and would end up getting my faced 'washed' with snow on the way home and otherwise faced constant ridicule from bullies because, um, I was fat. Unfortunately some people who have been bullied at a young age end up turning into bullies themselves. Fortunately for me I knew how unfair and painful it felt and grew up to think of this sort of behaviour as intolerable.

As for bullying in the work place. Well, any manager or boss will get a hell of a lot more out of their staff with a well-timed positive word than by bullying. I used to wonder how many of my bullying bosses had been subjected to this themselves at school and finally saw it as 'their turn' to get their own back (somehow! ) Or perhaps they had always been bullies.

Bullying one's staff can only create fear and resentment. It might get the initially desired 'results' - but at what cost? A truly good boss who is good at their job knows how to criticize as well as temper this with a few good things to say so that the employee can accept the criticism of their work.

Meanwhile, *all* bullies are cowards. Their need to use this sort of tactic shows this very clearly.

After having grown up as the constant victim of schoolyard bullies I refused to be bullied elsewhere. If a boss ever unfairly criticised my work I would always ask for specific examples and then ask for some positive advice on how I could improve and I would also point out the various ways that I *did* do my job very well. Which tended to take the wind out their sails, to say the least. It also made them think twice before unfairly criticising me in future.

Though at times it also made me lose my job.

az

well, if it is just "your boss" which made you lose the job, and not "the boss", the same techniques I mentioned will also work.

mentioning to "the boss" that although you don't want your job back, he should be aware that "your boss" is lining them up for a string of unfair dismissal law suits would definately have an effect.

Can't people just be 'firm but fair'???

There's a happy medium for everything (and I don't mean Doris Stokes....groan)- and there's never a reason/excuse for shouting someone down, no matter how great your Rack of Lamb is...or isn't.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/22/health/psychology/22bull.html?pagewanted=3


You have to be registered with the New York times.
This is an article about everyday workplace bullies.
Why-how- what to do