A Conversation for The Iraq Conflict Discussion Forum
Opinions on war with Iraq
DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! Posted Jan 25, 2003
As to timing, in an article I was reading last night, someone theorised mid-February 2003, in other words, *3 weeks*!
Opinions on war with Iraq
Deidzoeb Posted Jan 25, 2003
There are also seasonal and environmental considerations to the precise timing of the war. I don't know how hot it gets in most of Iraq, but I've heard the optimal window of opportunity for US action in Iraq was January through March. Wasn't Gulf War I around the end of January, start of February 1991?
Opinions on war with Iraq
DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! Posted Jan 25, 2003
It was the *exact* beginning of February. Bush snr had a count-down going from August 1990, and the deliberation of that was one of the most horrible things about it! Interestingly, the media here who are (almost) without exception, obsequious, pro-Dubya and unquestioning, were very different back in February 1991! Our local paper, I remember, was *very* cynical about Pappy Bush. Oh, for those happy days. Now on the TV and radio news, newsreaders say the most bizarre things with a straight face and with no ing! Such as that poor Dubya 'is exhausted and feeling the strain of waiting to see if there'll be war'. (Oh, maybe he has some doubt, he wants a war, as do Rumsfeld, Perle and Wolfowitz... but will they be allowed?
Opinions on war with Iraq
starbirth Posted Jan 25, 2003
the 'gulf war' stated January 17th 1991. The ground war began on Febuary 23rd 1991 and an official cease fire started Febuary 28, 1991. There is also a 'window of opportunity' that exists for a optimal 'military operation' this is based on weather conditions.
It is however not a deadline.
While I do believe that Rumsfeld has compassion for no one and comes accross as sociopathic. I truely believe that President Bush Agonizes over sending young men into harms way.
Opinions on war with Iraq
starbirth Posted Jan 25, 2003
*There is one thing that bothers me about the whole situation. Why is Blair so ready to go to war side by side with Bush. It serves no political purpose in fact it seems to be political suicide at best.
What is it that Bush has shared with him that would induce him to follow such a course that is obviously detrimental to his personal and political well being. To become PM he must be a fairly intelligent man and have strong survival instincts. Has anyone stopped to think on this one question?*
Does anyone have an opinion on my above Question? I really think it is valid to this thread.
Opinions on war with Iraq
Apparition™ (Mourning Empty the best uncle anyone could wish for) Posted Jan 25, 2003
Della, you should see ABC news late on TV3. It does more or less the same. If you can keep a straight face whan a voice says 'that was the world news tonight'
Opinions on war with Iraq
abbi normal "Putting on the Ritz" with Dr Frankenstein Posted Jan 25, 2003
Its always bugged me that the US calls their news the "world news" PBS is the only one that comes close on TV. Just like all the WORLD championships here in the US..including only the US. . *bah*
Opinions on war with Iraq
Apparition™ (Mourning Empty the best uncle anyone could wish for) Posted Jan 25, 2003
This was posted by someone in another thread
http://www.popmatters.com/features/021227-conspiracy.shtml
Take a look at 4. Hijacker Oddities I. Nothing new, but well referenced.
Opinions on war with Iraq
Mister Matty Posted Jan 25, 2003
"What is it that Bush has shared with him that would induce him to follow such a course that is obviously detrimental to his personal and political well being. To become PM he must be a fairly intelligent man and have strong survival instincts. Has anyone stopped to think on this one question?"
Starbirth, it's a running joke over here that the British PM (whoever it may be) is subsurvient to the United States. We're, sadly, resigned to this fact now and have to put up with "British" ministers parroting Washington's line. If Bush suddenly decided to call the war off tomorrow, you can be absolutely certain that Blair would suddenly wholeheartedly agree that this was absolutely the right move.
There was an old Spitting Image (old British satire show) sketch from about 1992 that summed the relationship up.
-------------------------------------------
George Bush Sr: I have an idea!
John Major (former British PM): I agree.
-------------------------------------------
Incidentally, you may be interested to know that Blair has permitted the US to use Britain's ground-based early warning system as part of it's Missile Defence System. The British taxpayer will pay for this. Britain will recieve nothing from the deal, no protection, nothing.
We give everything to the special relationship and recieve nothing in return (indeed, current assumptions are that UK oil firms will get no share of Iraqi oil whatsoever). It is nothing but servility and is cowardly and pathetic.
Opinions on war with Iraq
Henry Posted Jan 25, 2003
"Incidentally, you may be interested to know that Blair has permitted the US to use Britain's ground-based early warning system as part of it's Missile Defence System. "
I thought this was merely up for debate - are you sure it's gone through?
Opinions on war with Iraq
Mister Matty Posted Jan 25, 2003
"I thought this was merely up for debate - are you sure it's gone through?"
Apparently, Blair has given the US the go-ahead to use it.
Opinions on war with Iraq
starbirth Posted Jan 25, 2003
*Starbirth, it's a running joke over here that the British PM (whoever it may be) is subsurvient to the United States. We're, sadly, resigned to this fact now and have to put up with "British" ministers parroting Washington's line. If Bush suddenly decided to call the war off tomorrow, you can be absolutely certain that Blair would suddenly wholeheartedly agree that this was absolutely the right move*
Thanks for the reply Zagreb. I have read much of how many in Briton feel that Blair is the lap dog of President Bush. This is what confounds me. While britan is a close US Allie they are not dependent on US protection. Britan is a military strong nation. They play a key role in Nato. A bit of partsan disageement would not change the close ties between the US and Britan.
So it intrigues me Why Prime Minister Blair is so inline with Bush when it comes to Middleeast Policy. He is obviously taking a lot of flak and has no personal or political gains to reap.
I can not help but wonder what motivates his behavior {and majors} on this matter?
Opinions on war with Iraq
Henry Posted Jan 25, 2003
Politically, Britain created Iraq when it sliced up the desert. It handed some of the control of it over to the states in an effort to pay America off for its military help. It still has a lot of interests over there.
Opinions on war with Iraq
Apparition™ (Mourning Empty the best uncle anyone could wish for) Posted Jan 25, 2003
Opinions on war with Iraq
SonicJunkie Posted Jan 25, 2003
Whilst I agree that Saddam should have been removed from power a long time ago, I have know strong opinions on how it should be done - if it comes to war, it comes to war. If we can avoid war, cool, fair enough.
However, this whole build-up to the countdown has confirmed a few thoughts that myself and a few friends raised since George Bush Jnr came into power....
1) It was brought up that, although it was meant to be a joke, even Bush's closest aides referred to the "Dubya" standing for WAR.
2) The main backers for Bush's presidential campaign were the big hitters behind the fossil fuel industries, who backed him under the condition that he takes whatever action necessary for them to get hold of as many resources as possible - for example - iraqi oil.
3) After 9/11, Dubya made certain veiled comments that led a lot of us to believe that he was hoping for an excuse to put his armed forces around the world, which leads on to our next point...
4) Dubya always gave the impression that he feels he has to achieve what Bush Snr didn't do, and thus prove his superiority over his father (removing Saddam Hussein would certainly add a few brownie points to his tally).
I could go on raising these points, but I won't, save this last one which I used to close our last debate (this one brought us all to an agreement after a bit of thought):
Look at the state of the World Economy toaday and compare it with the Economy around the time of Gulf I... the world has money that it needs to spend, whilst the price of oil fluctuates too much to secure finances. The best way to remove this financial excess is through the military. The only difference between today and Gulf I is that Saddam conveniently decided to invade Kuwait, hence providing the rest of the World with an excuse to send out their armies and relieve some of their financial burdens.
Opinions on war with Iraq
maduin Posted Jan 25, 2003
The annoying thing about the war that's about to happen is that all the motives are wrong and everyone's acting with remarkable stupidity.
Firstly, no-one anywhere seems to care about Saddam's human rights record. As an excuse for war it is awfully hypocritical, given American support for the Saudi regime, and that Britain gave Saddam military aid while he massacred Iranians. But really, why are liberals everywhere just automatically anti-war when it would be more consistent to want to remove Saddam?
Secondly, no-one anywhere seems to be giving any sensible thought to what happens after we kill loads of people and destroy Iraq's infrastructure. I don't understand why the Arab world is so against war; shouldn't that region want to get rid of Saddam. I don't get why muslims worldwide aren't supporting war to get quick democratic elections that'll probably install fundamentalist rulers. I'd want an assurance before war that democracy in Iraq would be upheld.
maduin
Actually utterly pacifist and a believer in nothing, just confused by this mad world. For our lunacy and the inherent darkness of our minds must surely mean we cannot ever risk exercising destructive power.
Opinions on war with Iraq
starbirth Posted Jan 26, 2003
*Politically, Britain created Iraq when it sliced up the desert. It handed some of the control of it over to the states in an effort to pay America off for its military help. It still has a lot of interests over there.*
I am somewhat understanding of the history in the middle-east and how it was carved up by the west. I was however under the impression that any British intrests had been long ago 'Nationalized' by Iraq.
Am I mistaken?
Opinions on war with Iraq
Deidzoeb Posted Jan 26, 2003
SonicJunkie,
"...if it comes to war, it comes to war. If we can avoid war, cool, fair enough."
The passive wording of that sentence is troublesome. Wars don't just come like rain or sunshine or acts of nature. The leaders of US and UK are pushing for war as the best solution, and they are obliged to follow the will of their citizens. If they decide to start an unjust war, they're going to be using our money and our indifference, which is indistinguishable from our consent. This is not something that you can sit back and let them decide on, because they are starting this war on behalf of you and me.
If it comes to war, and our leaders are doing unfair things, then it's because we allow them to.
"Dubya always gave the impression that he feels he has to achieve what Bush Snr didn't do, and thus prove his superiority over his father (removing Saddam Hussein would certainly add a few brownie points to his tally)."
GHW Bush could have invaded Bagdad and taken out Hussein. It was not a failure but a decision. Bush Sr and his National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft wrote a book in 1998 "A World Transformed" that explained their reasons for deciding not to remove Saddam, and they apparently still felt it was the right thing to do as late as 1998.
Dubya might take pride in removing Saddam Hussein, but it's not exactly something his father sought to accomplish and failed to accomplish. In fact, during the Iraqi uprising at the end of the Gulf War, the US could have prevented Saddam's troops from using helicopters against rebels, but the Bush Administration specifically stayed out of it. I don't exactly understand why, but they really did not want a different regime in Iraq. Maybe they thought his replacement could be even worse? Or that Iraq would break into several territories at war with each other? Who knows.
Opinions on war with Iraq
Deidzoeb Posted Jan 26, 2003
maduin,
"...why are liberals everywhere just automatically anti-war when it would be more consistent to want to remove Saddam?"
You seem to be guessing at the motives of liberals instead of listening to their reasons for opposing the war. I don't think there are any liberals who stand up for Saddam as if he were a good guy. We'd like to see him taken out, but we don't agree that US invasion will be the best way to accomplish it.
"I don't get why muslims worldwide aren't supporting war to get quick democratic elections that'll probably install fundamentalist rulers. I'd want an assurance before war that democracy in Iraq would be upheld."
US military intervention does not always result in democratic governments. South Korea was not democratic for many years after our war there. We supported a revolving cast of dictators in South Vietnam during that war. In Guatemala and Chile, the US specifically supported right-wing regimes to topple democratically elected leftist governments.
This may be another reason that liberals oppose the war, because they remember how often the US has intervened to prevent democratic regimes from developing, not to install democracy. (Among lots of other valid reasons.)
Opinions on war with Iraq
abbi normal "Putting on the Ritz" with Dr Frankenstein Posted Jan 26, 2003
""no-one anywhere seems to care about Saddam's human rights record."" That IS the only reason I want to remove him, and without a full scale war! The war will cause the release of any chemicals and bio-warfare not found,more than likely. Certainly will NOT stop it. The oil fields burning, had to have done a lot of damage to health in the past. The ones chosing war, mention human rights and health issues the least.
Key: Complain about this post
Opinions on war with Iraq
- 3441: DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3442: Deidzoeb (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3443: DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3444: starbirth (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3445: starbirth (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3446: Apparition™ (Mourning Empty the best uncle anyone could wish for) (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3447: abbi normal "Putting on the Ritz" with Dr Frankenstein (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3448: Apparition™ (Mourning Empty the best uncle anyone could wish for) (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3449: Mister Matty (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3450: Henry (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3451: Mister Matty (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3452: starbirth (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3453: Henry (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3454: Apparition™ (Mourning Empty the best uncle anyone could wish for) (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3455: SonicJunkie (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3456: maduin (Jan 25, 2003)
- 3457: starbirth (Jan 26, 2003)
- 3458: Deidzoeb (Jan 26, 2003)
- 3459: Deidzoeb (Jan 26, 2003)
- 3460: abbi normal "Putting on the Ritz" with Dr Frankenstein (Jan 26, 2003)
More Conversations for The Iraq Conflict Discussion Forum
Write an Entry
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a wholly remarkable book. It has been compiled and recompiled many times and under many different editorships. It contains contributions from countless numbers of travellers and researchers."