h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

According to John Gray, author of 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus', men should take the initiative in planning the date and should expect to make the arrangements and pay the bills at least for the first few dates and definitely on the first one. Taking responsibility like this will relieve the woman of it and allow her to be taken care of and be treated as 'special'.

Some venues and occasions are more romantic than others. Taking someone or being taken somewhere special can make the date really memorable.

Women should be self assured, receptive and responsive (and I know for some of us, this is hard), which means appreciating the man's gifts, which means that if the film is lousy, she should not say so, as the man will immediately take it to mean she is criticising him. A positive comment on some aspect of the date will be received as a positive comment on himself.

That's not to say that women can't disagree, it's how it's done that's important. Men like to be experts, so disagreeing in a way that shows difference and isn't competitive will help preserve honours, ie saying 'I hold a different viewpoint on this', rather than saying 'I disagree'.

Men should be confident, purposeful and responsible. Men can tend to see a date as a sort of job interview and whilst they are marketing themselves, may neglect to ask questions in their turn.

Men should talk less than the women and ask her questions. If women mistakenly ask too many questions, the man, far from being more interested in her, will start to become more interested in himself. Believe me, this is a real turn-off. The woman will then find that she cannot get a word in edgeways and it appears as if he is not interested in her, only in himself.

And, relax and enjoy the occasion. And at the end, if you've had a good time, or if you haven't, it's good to make contact so that the other person knows where they stand.

Bill paying's always a worry. I always go to pay, but a lot of women I've been out with are more comfortable going halves. One woman was actually a little insulted that I'd consider paying for her meal! I guess you just need to be willing to go with the flow to some extent and not put to much of an onus on it either way.

As for the talking part - I tend to agree, though I've never talked too much about myself anyway. I did have one first date where I'm pretty sure I never got to say more than 'Hello' over the course of the first hour...

"And, relax and enjoy the occasion. And at the end, if you've had a good time, or if you haven't, it's good to make contact so that the other person knows where they stand."

Easier said than done, if I have to worry every minute if I'm not being too assertive/am being too submissive/am hurting the man's ego... too much hard work!

And regarding the contact, I got a message from a friend this morning: he danced with a girl all night and left her standing without even so much as a peck on the cheek. So much for men being in the lead...

Disaster, doom, disaster!!!

I always tend to go dutch on a first date, but this is secretly because I like a man who will turn round and insist on paying for me. Sadly this rarely happens!

The problem is that us women are contrary things and each of us is different! It is a minefield and there is no simple solution. For every woman who wants to be paid for there are quite a few who would be insulted by the offer.

Don't I know it!

This is all about the etiquette of dating, isn't it?

I hate the etiquette of dating. My dream date is dancing the night away and then two beers and a blanket on top of the city, talking about life in general.

I think we should all be more tolerant of the insecurities of the opposite sex... mind you, on the last date I had the guy called two hours late, dragged me out of the club because he was bored and couldn't keep a conversation going. I HAD to kick him to the curb, figuratively speaking...

This is all relatively new to me, having got divorced a few years ago and I'm now putting out my first tentative feelers. I suspect it's different for divorced people, certainly for people who were together for many years. Divorced people tend to have baggage and I've spent time getting to know what mine was and getting rid of it. It's something else to be aware of and often you can tell if the other person still hasn't dealt with his/her stuff.

There have been occasions where I have felt it appropriate to go dutch, however this is usually with someone I have less than fully positive thoughts for and don't want to feel obligated.

As for phoning to contact someone - it's just good manners. Some men, who are not sure of a date will tend to leave a woman hanging, thinking that at least they're not burning bridges. However, women have good memories and don't like being strung along. Much better for a man to ring and say that he's not sure right now, but he might like to get back together later. This allows the woman to get on with her life if and if she's not free when he decides to call back, so be it.

If you've had a stinker of a date (your date reveals something that really puts you off them, for instance), it's often easier to say something at the time. Like 'thanks for the date (meal, trip to the cinema, walk, etc) - see you around sometime'. Or ring to say thank you for the date, hope you complete your assignment (or something personal), then something to indicate you won't be in touch, like you're not sure, haven't the time right now, feel you're not right for each other, etc.

If the woman doesn't hear and thinks the date went well, the advice is to wait a few days, then call to say hello, how much she enjoyed what they did on the date, the meal, the sights (things not him). Sometimes, if there's too long a gap, the right timing will pass. This just says, hello, I'm interested and doesn't put pressure on or seem too pushy.

I have found that the best source of information on who pays has come from a female freind of mine who put it like this:

THE GUY PAYS - THATS IT

She went on of course to qualify this, saying that women like to feel as though they are special and worthy of being cared for, and that while it is socially acceptable for her to suggest a "dutch treat" that most of the time she either
a) wants the guy to insist (this factor had been pointed out already) or
b) does not want this guy to feel as though he has any claim to her.
In relating the second reason I got the impression that she was talking about guys whom she did not want to see again. Kind of made me ponder all the girls who had insisted on dutch treats and then sudenly developed an obsession with hair-washing...

I split up with my live-in boyfriend at the beginning of the year. It was very much like a divorce, and I'm still picking up the pieces. It's true that people who have been in long-term relationships have more baggage, and are often more picky because they've worked out what it is and isn't that they like.

That said, getting in touch... The Rules (which, to us post-feminists, is like The Satanic Verses for muslims) insists you should never call first. I think that, if the date went really well, a girl is authorized to call first. If the guy at the other end gets scared or assumes he has her wrapped around his finger and is less than nice... then... one more idiot off the list!

The dating world is such a minefield...

As to paying or going dutch, it probably depends on the circumstances of the date. If you've been introduced by, say, a dating agency, you are unlikey to know very much about the other person and it will very often feel safer to pay for yourself. If you've had a series of long conversations first, it is more likely that you will feel safer for the woman for the man to pay. With someone who has asked you face to face for a date, it's a different kettle of fish.

I suppose another factor in this is whether the woman may feel obligated to be more physical than she may be ready for. In truth, there is no reason to feel obligated, however women may be lacking in confidence or men may be lacking in skill and discernment.

No one should assume you'll sleep with them only because they've paid for dinner! If they do, they're not worth it.

Anyway, as a rule of thumb, men prefer to pay for dinner if they don't know you very well. If you feel uncomfortable with it or don't want to see the guy again, the best thing you can do is pay for the meal yourself and watch the guy zooming out!!!

If the guy insists on paying, the least you can do is smile nicely and say "Thank you". That'll make him feel all big and powerful and manly (of poor us...) One of my exes was skint and made a lot less money than me, but he never let me pay for dinner. (Later, I realized it was his way to compensate subliminally, because he was using me for sex and for an ego boost.)

With longtime friends or people you know you're going to see again, you could always take turns, I think.

This business is horribly complicated, it's tempting to take a vow of celibacy...

The thing is, is it really important who pays for dinner, when the real problem is, do I like this person? Do I like talking to them? Would I be happy with them on a mountain top, singing folk songs and getting drunk on grappa?

That's what is really important, the connection. Everything else is just... you know... irrelevant. If you find somebody you click with, it won't be who pays for dinner that seals the deal. If you worry too much about the details, you lose the bigger picture.

I did have one date where the girl told me in advance that I'd be paying. Have to say didn't appreciate that too much - I think the man should pay / offer, but he shouldn't be told!

I agree that it shouldn't really be that important, but it's amazing how all these little things become big things when you're on a first date. You just want everything to be right...

Well, in all likelihood you won't be able to tell on a first date, because what you see is not always what you get! Well, not all the time - I do know of people for whom it's been love at first sight.

I wonder what the politics are for people of the same gender... gay researchers, speak up! Your wisdom will be greatly appreciated (at least by me.)

I'm not sure any of this matters, it is just different everytime.

As a man I would say that I normally pay on the first date but there are no rules, one girl I went out with demanded to pay here share as I was a student and she worked, and we went out for a few months.

As for phoning its a night mare, I think alot of the time when blokes dont phone its becuase we are scared of the rejection, esp if it was hard to tell how the first date went, the longer the phone call waits the harder it is to make and eventually it never gets made.

Girls, if you think a date has went well but you havent had a phone call, try phoning him, if he's like me it will be a life saver!(saying that I always call if it was a good date) It might also catch out any "rotters" who dont want you to call (you know who I mean)

Then again what do I know? I must have had some of the worst dates in history.

"It might also catch out any "rotters" who dont want you to call (you know who I mean)"

Yeah, the men The Rules was written for (whom we're not interested in anyway...)

When I was younger I would always insist on going Dutch. It was that 80s feminist independence thing. Also, as mentioned earlier, the false fear of feeling obligated.

Now, however, I don't make any attempt to pay on a first date, and it always seems more comfortable for both parties that way. Men do seem to feel happier that they've given you something, and you can appreciate it. It's nice.

When men immediately agree to letting women pay their share, I think it's because they're worried about appearing as some old chauvinist, but secretly, women are usually pleased when they insist on paying.

It's a complicated world for men.

How true! It's complicated for both sexes, I think. First time round seemed a lot easier. Maybe there are different rules once you've been in a long term partnership, or maybe at different stages in your life?