h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Celtic Knotwork - A981911
Author: Pimms - U219930

I'd really like to get a small knotwork panel illustration added to finish this off. Can anyone help?

I can't help, but check your references - the Celtic History link is broken. Other than that, nice to see someone mentioning the controversy rather than twittering on about the Ancestral Celts without mentioning them not being a self-aware socio-political entity. Also nice to see someone stating that knotwork is largely Christian rather than some ancient Olde Magickale Traditone.

Have you considered mentioning the Iron Age Norse interlacing, to which the Celtic decorations owe a lot of their style?

Thanks for pointing out the 'broken' link.
Actually I'd not specified it properly. I'm still new to this HTML.

As far as Norse influence on knotwork it is going a bit beyond the scope of what I wanted to write about (just the drawing knotwork bit). I included some history, but it is really just scratching the surface, the deeper I go the more I get confused by who did what.

For instance Stephen Walker talks about La Tene and Celtic art, without mentioning Picts, while George Bain labels many of his knotwork designs 'Pictish School of Celtic Art'. Read the article on Scots and Picts linked to the A699023 Book of Kells reference, and it doesn't mention Celts.

None of the sources I've read so far goes much into the Norse Source. For the same reason I haven't mentioned Greek, Egyptian, Roman, Chinese, Indian, Hausa or Mayan examples of plaiting,Tree-of-Life, etc. that could be seen (and in some case reasonably argued)as being either a source, derived from, or simultaneous evolution with Celtic Knotwork.

If you have any suggestions as to sources for the Norse influence I may be able to include a bit more history.

Confusing, isn't it?

The problem is the foundation of where you start looking, and for Celtic knotwork, you really only want to go as far as the Viking influence on Ireland, and the early Celtic Church. All that stuff about Picts (my home territory, Pictland! We have a Pictish symbol stone in our kirkyard) is just going to confuse the issue.

Celtic knotwork is really only called that because of the Celtic church - St Columbus and his ilk - and because it is the Book of Kells. The simple interlaced animals of the iron age are primarily Scandinavian in origin - go to http://www.google.com and stick 'valknot' in as a search term if you want to see what I mean. The complex, multiple interlaced and many-coloured illuminations are all Celtic Christian Church.

La Tene is well before any of this, so it won't mention Celtic knotwork at all because it's pre-Christian. Also, as far as I know there was no knotwork found at Hallstadt either.

I think, unless you want to get into a work of early Chrisitan history, you are probably best to concentrate on the graphical design and how to draw it.

I've done a small piece of knotwork which you can link to from your entry. I'll sort it out this evening (hopefully) and put the link here. WIth a bit of luck, the editors will consider this worthy of a picture - they can then copy the picture from my webpage.

Thanks Gnomon
I look forward to seeing it.

Have you considered starting the article with a one-liner about what Celtic Knotwork is, rather than going straight into the hobby aspect?

I have to say I like this article , despite its preponderance of footnotes , but I admit bias.

Have you considered starting the article with a one-liner about what Celtic Knotwork is, rather than going straight into the hobby aspect?

I have to say I like this article , despite its preponderance of footnotes , but I admit bias. A link to something about this Valknot thing?

Here's the small example of knotwork:

http://gofree.indigo.ie/~jonmca/knot2.gif

Thanks Gnomon
That is the kind of thing I was thinking of - it should enable any readers to easily grasp most of the points being made about the aspects essential to knotwork without having to link to another site. I liked the fact that you chose dimensions that made it a single loop.

The only improvement that could be helpfully made to it for the article is to change it from a simple plait, with no pattern of breaks within it, to one with some (symmetrical) breaks.

You are a somewhat prolific writer on h2g2. I noted that you commented tactfully on the previous article re Celtic Knots. That article inspired me to write my one, since I believed it didn't provide a wholly accurate portrayal of the subject .
What is the protocol on h2g2 when providing an alternative view? Should I provide a link and warn that it contains views not widely accepted elsewhere, or simply hope it fades away? I believe that it was the first article by the original researcher, and she accepted it wasn't comprehensively researched, having limited sources at the time.

With the breaks could you do three breaks down the vertical axis - vertical break, then horizontal, then vertical? This will preserve the single loop, not take too much effort, and provide a pleasing well-knotted design I think.

I notice that the other Celtic Knots entry A452486 (written by Dragonfly) was picked on 26 Jan 2002 but then appears to have vanished. I can't find it as an Edited Entry. Perhaps you should ask the author. Dragonfly is very talkative - as far as I know she has the all-time record for the most postings to h2g2.

If Dragonfly has withdrawn her entry, then you can put whatever you like in yours. If hers is on its way into the guide, then you should make sure that yours complements hers by not providing the same information.

I'll see what I can do about the breaks in the knotwork when I get a chance.

I've updated the knotwork example as you requested.

Sorry Gnomon I screwed up with my suggestion.
Thanks for amending it , but as you may have noticed the central horizontal break causes the pattern to form two loops, not the more elegant single loop .

It did look like a single loop when I was doodling it on Andrew Birrells Knot applet.

*wanders past*

I only popped in because I mis-read the very small text on the Peer Review page, and thought it said 'Celtic Knobwork'. Hence, I was a bit disappointed when I actually read it.

Nice entry, though.

B

Thank heavens for Freudian slaps! I'd like more people to read the article and provide feedback.

Artistic Knobwork is most likely to be found on the end of a wizard's staff. Possibly carved by artisans in Llamedos. Maybe Terry Pratchett would be interested.

Perhaps if I removed the central horizontal cut, the pattern would look good and would be one loop.

Yes (I was embarrassed to ask you to change it again, after the effort you've already put in) However since you've offered ... would it be possible to alter the corner arcs as well, so that they're pointed? This was one of the characteristics of celtic knotwork I didn't include, which you would have found had you gone to http://www.craytech.com/drew/knotwork/knotwork-general.html, which is the same site as some of the other links.

I'll change it this evening.

Have some virtual . Not half so bad for you as the real thing, and hopefully not excluded by your Lenten abstinence.