h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

azahar

If someone can't get their opinion through nicely, with out fliping out, they should sit down and tape their "behinds" to the chair cause they shouldn't ever get up and talk. I have an uncle that has two sides to him: when he is in a bad mood he'll flip out about everything, in a good mood he becomes the most rational person I had ever known. I had an experience once when I discussed same problems with him during his both moods, first when he was angry and later when he was smoking the peace pipe. It was a problem of two opinions, the bad one (my) and his. After the first talk, I was holding on to my opinion harder than ever, mostly cause his anger passed over to me (though I never showed it). After the second conversation, I was thanking him for showing me THE WAY.
Furthermore, being calm doesn't necessarily mean being a kindergarden teacher, nice and friendly. It also can mean to be serious, disciplined, and firm with out flipping out.

Later

This is a good idea but is easier said than done . Most people are passionate about their beliefs or opinions and are unable to disscuss them carmly
Me i'm pretty laid back and willing to listen and change my mind if shown another way or idea but i think this may be fairly rare

hi legend,

I agree with you that getting angry about trying to 'prove one's point' usually never helps - in fact, it often has the opposite effect as the listener just stops listening. When people get angry at me during a discussion I tend to feel a bit frightened and then just clam up.

On the other hand, I've had quite lively discussions at times where both parties (me and the other person) were quite emotional and very interested in what we were talking about. I think I never actually try to MAKE someone see my point of view as being the 'right' one. And I often learn stuff by being able to listen to someone else properly.

Just off the top of my head, I can only think of three topics that might get my blood boiling if people hold an opposite opinion to mine - when I talk to militant pro-life (anti-abortionist) people, those who think that child porn is a 'victimless'crime, and racist people.

Oh yeah, and I often want to punch my sister in the face about lots of things she says - but I think family is a special case as they somehow know how to press all sorts of buttons that the general public have no knowledge of.

yours in peace,
az

two things NEVER to be discussed in bars/tavens/inns/pubs OR over a delicious dinner---politics and religion. philosophy is just a buncha words, and right/wrong has been debated since socrates and plato.

I agree! Serious discussion tends to upset the digestive process.

our conversation reminded me of something strange that came to my head when I was reading Plato Republic. It was one of those rear moments when I FELT really smart and decided to prove so to myself be reading about Socrates. What I got out of that reading is the feeling that people Socrates was arguing against were messing around with him. Kind of when you listen to someone saying thigs that are stupid, smart, not quite rational, and wanting to find out how far will he go to prove his point.

hi legend,

I hope I understood your last posting properly - if not it's probably totally MY fault (I've been told by others in other conversations that I seem to have a reading disability! Which may well be true.)

Do you mean that the people Socrates was arguing with were just winding him up in order to try and sound intelligent or clever?

If so, this wouldn't surprise me at all. People tend to get very threatened by someone who knows more than they do. to the extent that they feel a need to ridicule that person in order to maintain their rather pathetic 'superiority'.

Me? There is so much I no nothing about. How computers work, even how TV works, for god's sake! I am not technologically adept in any way whatsoever. I've also never had children, so whatever parents tell me about their experiences raising kids has to be something I take on faith as I cannot express a personal opinion on this.

But as for the concept of 'right and wrong' or god stuff, I think I have my own very personal opinions on that, which are true for me at least. As for philosophy, that often ends up getting back to 'god' in the sense of how we humans operate. Don't get me wrong, I don't belong to any particular religion, though the concept of god is something I find very intriguing.

Socrates dared to say what he believed to be true in a time when people in general were not overly educated - hence he came up against a lot of opposition. He threatened people. And well, he paid the price in the end. He was murdered. As so many 'messiahs' of truth have been murdered throughout history.

I wonder - what are we so afraid of? Are we really so afraid of the truth? Or even someone else's opinion of what the truth might be?

Me? I welcome all sorts of opinions. I often find myself floundering in a sea of doubt and wonder. And for sure, I have not come up with any one answer to explain most things I wonder about. I actually doubt that one answer exists, but the many possible answers are very interesting to me.

I had a father that sounded much like your uncle. You didn't agree with him? He'd just hit you over the head. Not very intelligent. Except we WAS intelligent. He just didn't know it. Somehow.

The concept of 'right or wrong' is often very subjective. But I still believe there is a very BASIC rule for this - perhaps the golden rule? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As I say, I'm not religious in any way - rather I like to take stuff from all sorts of religions and myths, pick and mix - but what better basic rule to have than that one?

Whenever I hear someone say something wise and intelligent I don't ever feel threatened - rather, it's like a breath of fresh air to me.

This actually doesn't happen nearly often enough.

That is basically why I got on h2g2 - to share lots of ideas with lots of people. So, it's nice sharing these ideas with you.

azahar

legend: i am currently in a chat forum that often gets invaded by trolls--hit-and-run posters that say negative things--and i'm trying exactly that, baiting them, asking them questions. i suppose some of it is trying to prove intellectual 'superiority' but another is just plain curious as to why/how they come to hold their beliefs. often, i find that what they said is not quite what they meant, and further discourse reveals common ground, a certain cyber-understanding of another cyber-personality.
azahar: yes, that is exactly why i joined h2g2 when i came across reference to it. and discussions from across the globe, differing viewpoints, differing cultures...which is why this topic is ideal for discussing on a forum such as this. we can find much common ground in understanding ourselves and others.

azahar

First of all, you understood me half way. What I meant to say was that Socrate's friends were winding him up only to see how far he will go. It seems (and thats only an opinion) that they were sort of making fun of him. All they did (I'm talking about Plato's Republic) was agreeing with him. Nevertheless, you comment about these friends trying to also look smart has truth in it. Sometimes they did point out different parts of his explanation that they though Socrates didn't elaborate on and thay could do it just to seem smarter.
Also, I can't fully agree with you about the Golden Rule. I always try to follow it and perhaps that was the reason why I had some "bad" (social opinion) friends. One person I played hockey with fought every person on the ring but me, he even respected me. I have a friend, drug dealer, who also respected me and trusted me with counting his money when he was drunk (with out me having to be in the gang.) One job I worked on, that had maybe 15 people personel, I was one of the three or four whom the boss could count on. However, I also had a lot of opposite reactions, when in return for my nicness I got some problems.
And to be honest, the reason I joined h2g2 was because it was mentioned in Douglass Adams's biography. Nevertheless, I'm happy I did that because I found people to talk to.

hi legend,

By following the golden rule I don't mean that one has to be soooooo nice all the time. I don't think that is very natural. But rather, not to ever hurt intentionally and to generally treat others with respect. Of course, there are some people who don't deserve one's respect and with these people I see no need to be 'nice' to them (though I am also not outwardly rude).

I think I have said somewhere here before that I think sometimes people are so polite that they end up being rude - if that makes any sense. I've been badly humiliated by this before, when people 'pretend' they are interested in you or what you're saying when they really can't stand you and wish you'd shut the f**k up. I don't think this is being polite. I mean, I also wouldn't have wanted them to say anything nasty to me, but there are ways of showing you aren't interested or whatever without being rude.

Hey, I found out about h2g2 by reading the Salmon of Doubt. I haven't here for very long, perhaps a month or so. I agree, it is nice having people to talk to about all sorts of things.

In regards to letting your emotions get int eh way when in a debate, I have been through an exhausting debate on the Guide today. It is nothing worth noting, not because of the subject, but because of the content. Three people all arguing their point with no give allowed, made for a bad situation.

We started talking about right or wrong. It is something debated for centuries. Most likely as long as there has been language. What is right? what is wrong? Are all of these questions to be decided by impartial discussion, or by heated emotional debate. Impartial discussion is likely to stangnate, while the heated emotional battles are likely to cause the opposing side to harden against your feelings.

It was made very clear to me today that the idea of rational debate in an internet forum is one who's time perhaps has not yet come. I have discused many things with people all over the world, primarily here on the guide, but fierce debate has never seemed to come to resolution. Perhaps the insulation we feel while posting with a certain amount of anonymity has served only to harden us against the arguments of others. The idea that they have nothing to say while remaining anonymous seems prevalent.

At this point, I guess that I must resist the urge to preach and to argue and debate. Seems a shame really. So many differing view points and so many opportunities to be lost.

I thikn that I will not resist that urge. I think I will continue as I have. If you disagree with this, please let me know. I will be happy to argue that point.

Wow this conversation is really making me think
I like to believe I'm a good person, and I try to be nice (not easy at all) I am willing to listen to other points of view. My problem is that I hate conflict,( six years of being beaten for having an opinion took its toll.I still can't have an argument with some one without cringing)
But I am finding it much easier to to say something in a forum such as this. Even if you don't agree with what some one says you will still think about what has been said, and it may change your mind in the future

Hope I haven't prattled on too much



Helelou

hi helelou,

I'm glad you are finding this conversation interesting and challenging! Hey, I feel quite proud since I started it up myself! I really didn't expect that it would go on for so long, but as someone has just pointed out, it's kind of an never-ending debate with no definite answers. But that is also why I think it is so interesting, because there are so many different ideas about what is right and wrong.

It's great that you are losing your fear of debating by participating in conversations like this one.

So, prattle on as much as you like, my dear . I for one am interested in hearing what you have to say and I'm sure everyone else is too.

azahar

hi random,

I've never experienced 'trolls' in any conversation (yet!) but I'm in one debate where I am often bated by a couple of people who seem to ask me complicated questions just to set me up somehow - so they can then say something 'clever' and thereby make me look silly perhaps. I think they just end up making themselves look silly, to be honest. I've also been insulted, which is basically just bad manners and, again, I think just shows the other person to be a d**khead.

Of course there are 'house rules' here, so if someone is particularly abusive one can complain about their posting and if they keep this up they lose their priviledge to participate (though I suppose they could always come back again under a different name).

I'm happy to see that in this conversation everyone has been respectful of others, even if they challenge something said. That is the whole point, I think. To have a stimulating debate without having to get nasty about it.

az

hi Marv,

I don't think you ever need to feel you cannot speak emotionally or even passionately in these forums - that often makes for quite lively discussion.

I quite like my ideas to be challenged. It makes me think. And then, I may come to agree with someone else or it might make me feel even more strongly about my own viewpoint. Or it might make me realize that I perhaps haven't explained myself properly about something. Which again makes me think about what I REALLY want to say and then try and say it better next time.

What if we all agree that if someone becomes abusive or nasty the rest of us will all gang up on them and beat them up?

Well, that's enough of me-me-me for the moment - three postings in a row! Just answering a few of the things I read today.

azahar

Hi azahar,
I would like to think that most people are good but I think our basic need to suvive means we look after ourselves first We are basically selfish and it is only because we interact with each other that we have learned to interact politely (i.e not kill each other)to get what we want. But this doesn't me we could learn to be kind to each other
this isn't coming out quite right I am going to think on this some more It is difficult to put my thoughts into coherent words instead of the normal chaos that is in my head!



Helelou

hi helelou,

Very glad to hear that you also have 'head chaos' happening on a regular basis - don't feel so alone now!

I think it's a mistake to think of 'selfishness' as a negative concept. If we didn't look after ourselves properly first then we would have nothing of value to offer others.

I think the word 'selfish' has come to mean looking after number one (ourselves) at the expense of others. In fact, my Collins dictionary has the first definition for this word being:

1) chiefly concerned with one's own interest, advantage, etc, to the total exclusion of the interests of others.

Definition number two says:

2) relating to or characterized by self-interest.

I think we all have a basic survival instinct that is necessary for us to have. But for me, being 'selfish' is not a negative thing as I never behave selfishly to the total exclusion of others. Rather, I hope that by taking care of myself first and attempting to live the sort of life I can feel proud of, I can then have a base - a place where I feel secure enough to also help others when I can. In my experience, it's only been times when I haven't been 'selfish' enough, which leaves me feeling vulnerable and insecure, that I have not felt able to give to others as much as I might like to.

very 'selfishly' yours,
az

exactly, azahar and everyone. h2g2 is a 'safe' place i feel comfortable expressing myself (selfish) and learning from others across the world how they feel (w/o getting obnoxious.) i had been a newspaper reporter 20-odd years ago, but i made more money getting dirty, sooo...now that i'm pushing 50, writing again is looking better and better, and there are so many places on h2g2 to just read...and think.
about how other people feel, and how to express what i feel to others. thanks!

Never liked selfish. I agree that people should be selfish to the point where they can keep their integrity and dignity. However, if its anymore than that, it just gets annoying and make the person seem cocky.

integrity and dignity are 'right' and 'wrong' might be failing to live up to them in your own eyes, and in the eyes of whichever Deity you hold dear. (and not imposing on others, allowing them their own integrity and dignity.)
this thread sure does make one think, don't it?