h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"I don't think that many people would describe China as a communist country. It's a deeply authoritarian and thoroughly nasty regime - it's a form of state capitalism, really."

China is officially a communist country. It has been moving towards a free-market economic system for about 15 years. Certainly, private enterprise is now permissable in China, so the "state capitalism" thing is a bit out of date.

Sorry, I know we're supposed to be discussing the entry, but I felt I had to put my two pence in.

> "Without an incentive to be great, there won't be much greatness."

Of course. But that incentive doesn't have to be money. social needs and 'self-actualisation', amongst others, also encourage greatness. In practice, money can often be a disincentive to real greatness.

Now, where'd that author get to?

I see the title's changed, though

Would you like to comment on examples of Communism which appear to work, such as the Kibbutzim of Israel?

The title has changed, but no response in the thread from Quaxleduck...

Qu...

I must say, since various points have been raised but not adressed here, that I would be horrified to think that this piece could ever get anywhere near the editing process in its current form.

>>
Communism is the system by which money is spread equally throughout the people (so that no-one is elevated or degraded - at least, that's the IDEA), allowing the government, who dish out the goods, to seize control for themselves. Communism - when it is put into action - basically works in a manner so that everyone is prevented from developing a sense of identity or intelligence, masking the dictatorship which often lies hidden beyond.
<<

A definitive description of communism this ain't!

Anyway, i don't want to get all hot under the collar about or anything. I'm just saying...

Qu...? Any response?

cya
spiff

"The famous author Orwell criticised communism"

Err, no... Animal Farm was a criticism of people who continued to support the russian revolution after it had been taken over by Stalin.

Orwell's attitude to Snowball (Trotsky) in Animal Farm is interesting. In the book, it's easy to get the impression that everything would have worked if Snowball had taken over, as not much goes wrong until after he goes.

However, I read somewhere that Orwell re-wrote part of the story for radio broadcast to include *Snowball* arguing that the pigs should have all of the apples because they have to work harder, or some similar justification. I'm sure that Orwell's point was not Trotsky-yay! Stalin-boo! , and that Orwell's socialism was not Trotskyite, but much more suspicious of state power. Orwell's criticism of communism is from a left-libertarian perspective....

Otto
Keeping the red flag flying....

Yeah, I would say that's a pretty fair point. The story is a comment on power corrupting, which is a left perspective. In a truly communist state, power is divided equally. It is important to take the context of which is was written into account though - mainly the book was a criticism of the left who were remaining loyal to Russia (and Stalin), despite the fact that he was completely wrecking communism and selling out.

It's ironic though, that the book is used by the right (and even in mainstream education) as a general attack on the left and leftist principles - that is a complete misunderstanding of the story and the author's intentions. By showing that Russia wasn't a good example of socialism, Orwell wanted to advance the socialist cause.

Have you read Homage to Catalonia by the way?

I'm doing Nineteen Eighty-Four as my set piece and having to read several of Orwell's novels as well... But I like them

Orwell wasn't pro-Trotsky. I think the part about Snowball claiming the pigs should have more apples may be in the novel, at least the version currently available.

"It's ironic though, that the book is used by the right (and even in mainstream education) as a general attack on the left and leftist principles - that is a complete misunderstanding of the story and the author's intentions. By showing that Russia wasn't a good example of socialism, Orwell wanted to advance the socialist cause."

That's very true, Orwell seemed to spend a good part of the '30s and '40s railing against the British Left and it's abandonment of libertarian ideas in favour of big tough Stalin and his no-nonsense tyranny. It may be worth reading "Inside the Whale and other essays". There are some excellent critiques of both sides of the British political spectrum. It's amazing how little things, and the state of the arguments, have changed.

Thinking about it, Zagreb's right. The point was amplified in the radio play rather than introduced.

Homage to Catalonia was interesting - I was probably a bit young for it (15) when I went on my Orwell binge. I highly recommend "Coming up for air" and "Keep the Apisdistra Flying" (NOT the film version!!)

Otto

Film Version of "Keep the Aspidistra Flying" is good right up until the end when it becomes infuriatingly smug where Orwells book was more "what the heck"

Hi Q,

I don't know if you've changed the article (it's usual to post a brief note to this forum if you do so we can all go and be impressed by your new article ) because I've only just read it. Comparing the previous comments to the article as it stands, I think you may have. For example, it didn't seem as personal when I read it as some people here lead me to believe.

This is a reasonable starter for an article on Communism, but it's a short article and a large subject! For instance, you have not mentioned:

- the idea of revolution, central to Marx's theory
- Cuba, which seems to have got Communism to work (or at least, can blame its problems on a multi-decade economic blockade by the USA)
- that Marx was specifically thinking of Victorian Britian when he wrote, i.e. cotton mills and sweatshops. By his standards, we are living in a close approximation to a Communist society!

A note on the rise and fall of Communism world-wide wouldn't hurt, or the various types, Marxism, Stalinism, Lenninism, Maoism, Fidelism, Guevarism, Piggyinthemiddleism, etc.

Gif

Hi Giford,

I don't think the entry has changed (at least not dramatically) since I first read it.

You think this is a fair, objective description of communism?

"Communism is the system by which money is spread equally throughout the people (so that no-one is elevated or degraded - at least, that's the IDEA), allowing the government, who dish out the goods, to seize control for themselves. Communism - when it is put into action - basically works in a manner so that everyone is prevented from developing a sense of identity or intelligence, masking the dictatorship which often lies hidden beyond."



and this is an equally accurate and fair appraisal of marxism:

"One of Marx's main ideas was that money corrupts, and that good should be distributed egually through the people. Obviously Marx believed that if you spread the items around, everyone would become slightly corrupted, and therefore all of the corruption would not be noticed."

and world politics:

"America dislikes this kind of thinking because they prefer to keep the corruption in the hands of the really powerful people, who are used to it and know how to handle it. Australia and England are also against it, although to a lesser extent, striving desperately to attract the praise and attention of the USA."



and this is a helpful and insightful conclusion:

"Communism is a well-planned, all-embracing system. However, until we can find some way to erase human fault, it will probably never take purchase in the real world (although, admittedly, it has worked quite well in China, who are hot contendors - with America as rivals - for the titles of "Most Powerful Nation" and "Nation who Butts in to Other Peoples' Business Which has Nothing to do With Them Anyway.")"



I'm usually pretty positive about how things could be adapted for the edited guide, but this is a non-starter as an edited entry on communism, imo.

cya
spiff

I'd have to agree...

Oh yeah, I meant to mention that China was not reknowned for 'butting into other people's business'. (Unless you're Tibetan or Taiwanese, I suppose.)

I can only call 'em like I see 'em. Hang on, I'll re-read the entry.




I stick by what I said above, namely that this article needs altering and expanding. Yeah, you're right, you have taken some quite long quotes from a quite short article and I do disagree with them (and that would be a Bad Thing). But I would say that largely they are oversimplifications (especially your first quote), and hence need expanding. OK, the whole 'corruption' thing doesn't fit with what I know of Marxism, but that could be fixed.

I agree that in its current state, this article is not ready for the Edited Guide. I was just trying to point out some improvements that could be made that might at least leave it pointing in the right direction, rather than dismiss it totally.

I've seen worse posted in PR, often to less criticism (possibly because it was obvious that those articles were never going to get in). No article will 'never' make it to the guide. All that needs changing is the words.

It's just a question of how many of the words!

Gif

Hi Giford,

that reminds me of the Blackadder gag about Baldrick spelling Christmas in a card to Blackadder, when he was the Prince's valet. I can't remember the funny version, now, though.

something like 'none of the right letters in the wrong order'; except funny.

I think 'back to the drawing board' would be the best attitude in this case.

On an even more negative note (what's got into me recently ); I don't believe the author (no offence intended) is necessarily the best candidate to be writing a balanced and informative entry on the subject of communism.

dear, oh dear, I'm gonna have to take a happy pill, or something.

cya
spiff

Hi Spiff,

Hadn't you noticed? All my jokes come from Blackadder!

Prince Regent is writing a love-letter to that squirrel-hating woman.

B: Do you mind if I change one thing?
PR: What's that?
B: The words.

I haven't come across Quaxleduck before, so I can't comment on his suitability as an author.

Gif

To be honest, it is not a personal criticism of Quaxleduck. My comment was based purely on the evidence of the existing text.

Hey Quaxle... you out there? Don't Panic! just come on over and let us know what you think of all this, and what you plan to do with this piece.

I'm not saying you have to can it or anything. Just that it is not looking like an edited guide entry on communism.

It's not the end of the world.

And of course, you may disagree. Fire away.

spiff