h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I dont know if Astrology is true or not just like I dont know if there is a god or not but I dispute the claim that Astrology is a Science.
Science's are all about clearly identifiable theories with repeatable test data to back them up. Although there are often theories that turn out to be wrong in Science this validates the Scientific method even more due to its ability to improve itself.
As far as I can tell there is no analytical techniques used in Astrology to debunk wrongly held assumptions. So by all means believe in it but please do not compare it to Sciences that follow true Scientific Method.

MM

I dont know if Astrology is true or not just like I dont know if there is a god or not but I dispute the claim that Astrology is a Science.
Science's are all about clearly identifiable theories with repeatable test data to back them up. Although there are often theories that turn out to be wrong in Science this validates the Scientific method even more due to its ability to improve itself.
As far as I can tell there is no analytical techniques used in Astrology to debunk wrongly held assumptions. So by all means believe in it but please do not compare it to Sciences that follow true Scientific Method.

MM

I dont know if Astrology is true or not just like I dont know if there is a god or not but I dispute the claim that Astrology is a Science.
Science's are all about clearly identifiable theories with repeatable test data to back them up. Although there are often theories that turn out to be wrong in Science this validates the Scientific method even more due to its ability to improve itself.
As far as I can tell there is no analytical techniques used in Astrology to debunk wrongly held assumptions. So by all means believe in it but please do not compare it to Sciences that follow true Scientific Method.

MM

Thanks for the nice reply MaggW (a few posts back) and sorry if my own post seemed 'snotty' or combative. It wasn't meant to be. As I posted on a similar thread, I really, really, honestly would like someone who understands and believes in astrology to take the time to explain the mechanics behind how it is supposed to work. I simply can't see how the apparent positions of the sun and moon and planets against the distant stars can have any effect on human behaviour/personality types.

It was said

"It 'is' and it 'isn't' gravity that's what works. It's energy fields, which is slightly different. As if the planets do a dance in the solar system which creates a kind of 'energy web' or blueprint of tendencies which are simply automatic."

What kind of energy is being spoken about there and what is the force which supposedly influences our behaviour? I really would like to know. The "blueprint of tendencies" I don't understand either. What is that?

I don't care too much if astrology is described as "a science" or not but I would like to get some kind of handle on how it is supposed to work.

oops sorry. It was MaggyW not MaggW.

"The beginning of wisdom is to call things (and people) by their right names"
-an old Chinese proverb

I largely agree with this, although I seem to remember reading that several Scientific ideas are little more that speculative theory that have never been proved through experiment. Does that mean they aren't science and if not what are they?

Oho! The old 'scientific method' rears its head once more...

Just because it's an 'ology' doesn't mean that astrology (or anything with the same suffix)is a science. The scientific method of repeatable experiments is always going to fall down with this one because astrological patterns don't repeat more than once about every 25,000 years or so. And as we're dealing with people here, free will and all, and not inanimate objects there are all the different possible reactions to the same set of citeria to take into account. The 'ology' ending goes back to Greek (I think) and means something like 'talk about' or 'study of,' It doesn't mean 'nail it down and make it do it again and again until we've proved it.'

I wrote once in an article elsewhere, 'Astrology is neither an art nor a science, although it contains elements of both, but a language.'
That just about sums it up.

How many of those who have commented on here have ever had a natal chart drawn up or delineated? Maybe I am more open minded than others. I try not to form an opinion on something until I have researched it or experienced it myself.

Michelle

Speaking purely for myself, I have never had any kind of chart drawn up. And why? Because what little exposure I've had to Astrology has been the mass-market claptrap in the media. Why research something when it's such obvious, inconsistent rubbish? Life's too short to waste time on liars, especially ones who do it just for the money.

My opinion has very little to do with closed-mindedness. If Astrologists can't or won't police the charlatans in their midst then it shouldn't be a surprise if they are treated with a certain amount of cynicism. I made a similar point earlier in this thread which has largely been ignored, and in fact the first person to post in this thread said the very same thing. I'll ask it again...

Why can't Astrologists do something about all the b******s that is spouted in their name? Do you care? If you don't, then why the hell should I?

Any chance of someone answering that? Or is it easier to carry on throwing around silly insults about people being ignorant and closed-minded?

Geoff (more than a little p****d off right now)

Geoff,

If you would like to define 'mass-market claptrap,' 'obvious, inconsistent rubbish,' 'liars,' 'charlatans' and 'all the b******s that is spouted' then I'll do my best to answer you. Privately (by e-mail or on your Personal Space) if you wish. But I cannot promise that you'll be satisfied.

I'm pretty sure that I know what Geoff meant. Such definitions as you ask for are probably not really needed in this discussion. Asking for that is probably just getting bogged down with words and never getting to the heart of the matter.
There is a whole industry which makes money from astrology which is obviously very superficial (a relation of mine invented daily horoscopes for a local newspaper for a while!!).
The feeling is that it must all be based on something more real. It is that "reality" which folk like Geoff and myself are trying to reach one way or another.
How is it all supposed to work??
Why don't "real" astrologers speak out against the bandwagon jumpers??
Or do they??

Again what is the blueprint of tendencies mentioned earlier?

Oh, and no, I have never had any in depth natal chart thingy done for me perhaps because I have been put off by the charlatans.

I'm not going to argue semantics. Here are 3 examples chosen at random from a web search today...

"You are not entitled to any more happiness. You have already experienced some and, as I'm sure you must know, it is on ration. There is only a limited amount to go around. It is now someone else's turn to enjoy life. You must wait patiently for your next opportunity - which you will be advised of, in an official letter, at some point in the next few years. What do you mean this is not good enough? What kind of world do you think this is?" If you hear something like this from anyone today, including your self, just ignore it! – Jonathan Cainer - Taurus 27/2/02

Spend some time relaxing today to bring back your inner equilibrium. Home is where your love is, but you may need to get away for a while to find peace. A lucky day for you, and a great one to play the lottery. Lady luck is fickle so be careful. – Michael Thiessen – Taurus 27/2/02

You’re probably going to have to achieve some kind of balancing act between the needs of different friends. Arguments over money or different attitudes could unfortunately be a feature of this. Although this potential can peak today, it could hang around for another 2 weeks yet. A loved one may also feel you are leaving them out. For an in-depth weekly analysis call 0900 xxx xxxx - Patrick Arundell – Taurus 27/2/02

Any questions?

By George, you are cross aren't you?!

I would respectfully suggest that sun sign astrology is no more and no less bunk than political promises before a general election. And people seem to believe those!

Science is a very new thing. About 200 years old at the most. But it is now revered as God. No physical proof - no truth.

Many people believe that chemotherapy cures cancer because science tells them it does. Not always by any means. In fact it kills as much as it cures.

And people believe that all the internal checks on mothers-to-be when they are in labour are scientifically required and necessary. Not so, they're just common practice, not proven to do anything helpful.

Back to astrology though, I suspect that Sun Sign columns (apart from those who make them up) are based on the general configurations of the planets and how they would affect someone right in the middle of whatever Sun sign they're talking about. So, if you were, say, born on 10th April you might well get something out of a Sun Sign Aries column, but it would, necessarily, be vague.

You examples you quote are pretty damning - but I don't think anyone here is putting the case for Sun Sign astrology as accurate. It's a sop for the masses, yes (but so are the soaps on TV) but for some people, it's a doorway to the chance to find out more about themselves by getting the thing done properly.

Why don't professional astrologers stand up against Sun Sign astrologers? Well, the attitudes being shown here against those who are trying to do so is one reason why - we're not going to be taken seriously by most people and, without time and your birth data there's nothing we can prove to you.

As most of the people here who don't believe a)don't want to listen and b)probably would rather be eaten by the bugblatter beast of Traal give us your birth data there's not a lot we can do but put long postings like this one!

The ultimate point about astrology - as about all the 'healing arts/sciences/whatevers' is that proof is only possible in the physical world. Proof is, by definition physical. No proof is possible in the psychological world. It doesn't exist.

Evidence can be shown - but only in-depth.

Incidentally, Isaac Newton, who discovered gravity, was an astrologer and he said that anyone who debunked it without studying it for at least five years was an ass (that's a paraphrase).

Hippocrates was an astrologer too - and he said that any doctor who wasn't also an astrologer was not worthy of the name doctor.

I think I need a cup of tea now!

Yes, I'm VERY cross. I HATE being called closed-minded.

So.... here's the challenge. I will provide on this thread any personal information required for a chart/horoscope/whatever to be produced. I would like for at least 2, (preferably more) astrologers to prepare my horoscope completely independantly of each other, and to post their results back on this thread for all to see.

I undertake to be honest and open (although I reserve the right to provide certain details by email as I deem fit). In return I require everyone taking part to refrain from any consultations with each other. Independance is the key.

I'm male, and I was born at 4:22am on 4th May 1969 in Bury, Lancashire, UK. For the purposes of this challenge I can be contacted on [email protected].

well, I'm not cross in the slightest. Thanks for the responses. This is getting interseting.
Peace.

Well good for you! But if all the astrologers post on the site wouldn't that mean they were consulting? They could read each other's postings.

I'm just learning so I'm not a professional but I'm willing to have a go. However, all I can do is character analysis rather than predictions (which are in inexact thing anyway). Anyway, I'll do my best and email them to you - unless you are certain you want them up on h2g2.

It's great practice for me - so thanks.

Maggy

PS - and just to get your goat One of the trademarks of Taureans is that they are stubborn and hate being called closed-minded when they do have a bit of a problem cranking the old mind open once they've got an opinion. I can say that...I'm a Taurean too.

Yes! Sorry Geoff for p*****g you off! That was not my intention, however it also is not my intention to try to convert people into believing in something that they already had decided not to believe in. I do astrology for myself - it helps me figure out why people behave the way they do. I do not use it to try to forecast what will happen in the future, I do not do readings for money or for the general public. I have chosen to study it on my own for my own benefit. I also know of several doctors and counselors in the states that have started using it for insight into their patient's minds. Many of them are psychologists and psychiatrists.

There is currently (or was a couple of years ago) a very large research project that was going on (I don't remember the name of it, what college was hosting it, and whether it was an international project or just one in the US) trying to prove the validity of Astrology. As you can see, since I personally don't feel that Astrology needs validated - as I know it works - I didn't pay much attention to the details of that research project. But I can probably find out the specifics of it for you. Maggy W may be able to help with that also.

As for the charlatans in this field - well if publications keep paying astrologers to write the watered down "Sun sign cookbook" bunk that you see in magazines and newspapers and online - then I have a feeling it will continue. Does it piss the rest of us astrologers off? Yes! It does! But sometimes it is one of the best ways that someone who wants to do Astrology full time has of making money, and being accepted by the public. We have to continue to fight those battles on a daily basis (that and the battle to try to keep Astrology from being lumped in with the "occult" - which it has nothing to do with!)

So again I apologize for upsetting you, but you are not going to change my mind, and I have a feeling that whatever I try to say to you (bar doing an entire chart for you) would not change your mind. And since it takes several days of preparation to do a chart correctly, I am not willing to give that amount of time on top of the 20 years that I have spent studying this topic to do that for everyone who "chooses not to believe in Astrolgoy". I hope you can see where I am coming from also. And by the way - how many people still consider doctors bunk and hogwash? I know lots of people who have experienced outrageous misinformatoin and malpractice at the hand of these "scientists". (And please - don't think that I am some "new age foo foo" I have a biology background from college, my father was a doctor and my brother is a PhD in biochemistry and gentics, so I am a big "believer" in the scientific method!)

The best advice I can offer you on this subject is to have your natal chart done by a professional astrologer. Yes it will cost you money, and you will have to research the person you have do the chart for you. Ask around, talk to people who have had their charts done. See if the astrologer is "board certified" (yes Astrologers have tests and licenses that they should get also - at least here in the US) however, since people find out that they can make money with very little astrological knowledge - most of them do not take the time to go through the certification process. In other words - research the person who you have do the chart for you. And check to see if that person is willing to give you a refund if you are unhappy with the reading. Most of the professional astrologers here in the US will do that also. We have two groups here in the US that somewhat police and certify astrologers one is The American Federation of Astrologers (AFA) and the other is the National Council for Geocosmic Research (NCGR). The NCGR was started by astrologers, doctors and researchers - so you may find more of the type of information you are looking for on this site (www.geocosmic.org). Please also realize that there are different kinds of Astrolgoy: Tibetan, Vedic (East Indian) and Western (Uk and America) and they are very different from each other! (Vedic is linked more to the Hindu religion, and I am not familiar with Tibetan astrology). There is also a college where you can get a degree in Astrology now in the US.

I don't know if any of this helps you to be less p****d off Geoff - but at this point in time it is the best I can (or am willing) to invest in this conversation! Anyway it's h2g2 and it's supposed to be fun! So calm down and do something today just for the fun of it (and yes - you can tell people that your astrologer told you to do that if you wish!) Ha!

Michele

Friends, Michelle
"But sometimes it is one of the best ways that someone who wants to do Astrology full time has of making money, and being accepted by the public" - by making stuff up? You didn't mean that, did you?

We have a taker for the challenge!! Thanks MaggyW Please email the result to me. When I have received all the horoscopes that I'm going to get, I will post them all on this thread at the same time, and people can then see how similar they are.

Actually Geoff - The "Sun sign" columns aren't made up (unless the person writing it has no knowledge of Astrology - then of course it is made up!) They are still using planetary positions to write their columns with, it's just that they have have to make it so vague, and yet try to "personalize" it at the same time that it gets interpreted differently, wanked up and spuged out a bit! (in other words they have to take this very generic limited info and "spruce"it up a bit so that it still applies to millions of people of that sun sign!)

Most of an astrologer's info comes from "house" placement (where in your chart the planets are located), aspects (how do the planets "work with", "blend" or "put stress on" the other planets in your chart) and whether or not the planets have similar characteristics (are the majority of them in fire, water, earth or air signs, are they in "fixed" (or stubborn) or "mutable" (changeable, formable) signs or houses in your chart?). Plus the time of day you are born, and location give us some very important info. The sun sign astrologer has none of that to work with. So they are having to take (and this is probably not an accurate percentage) approximately 1/50th of the facts, and make it sound like it's the whole ball of wax!

I hope this sheds some light on how different sun sign astrology and astrology based on your personal natal chart are.

(and I have to leave now - as I haven't had any yet this morning and it's already 10:30 am and I may have to kill some co-workers if I don't drink some quickly!)

Hi!

I'm very keen on seeing the result(s) of this challenge!


But before that, may I ask some heretical questions please?

- Why is the time of birth supposed to be so special?
The gravity / energy fields etc are the same, no matter if the baby is inside or outside the mother's womb. Or, does a mother's body *shield* babies against the influences emanating from the stars? Are the fields transmitted by air and then incorporated at the first breath of a newborn?

- Given the fact that birth is a process of some hours rather than a event, at which phase of birth do you take the time? And why?

- Does it matter if a person is born a minute earlier or quarter of an hour later?

- What if the natural way of birth would have happened at time X, but then a doctor stepped in and did a Caesarean cut at Y = (X-something) hours? Which of these times (provided you knew them both) are you going to use as the basis for the calculations?

- Would you say that hospitals are interfering with the fates of people when they administer chemicals to delay (or speed up) birth?

- Why don't you take the *time of conception* as the basis? After all, *that's* the time when the genes are mixed and I'd rather tend to believe that celestial energies stand a chance of interfering in *this* process.



Bossel (another Taurus)