h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>>I don't intend to bring up any of my children in a particular religion, faith, or atheistic standpoint. Instead, I will tell them about them when they ask, and let them make their own decision. Then, I will know that whatever path they choose it is their path, not one I forced them on or one they chose as a backlash against mine.<<<

That sounds like how I was raised. I never attended church--well, there was one time my day care center took me to Sunday school, and once when I went to be with my maternal grandparents, but you know what I mean. My mother tells me I was raised with Presbytarian values and ethics, but not beliefs. I also vaguely remember her telling me that my father was Taoist, but I've never seen any indication from him. We celebrate Christmas and Easter and Halloween , and that's about as religious as we get. And she was surprised when I told her four years ago in sixth grade that I was an atheist...

s and s,
~Wes

It's strange, isn't it? My Mum reckons she's an Anglican, but she never goes to church and I doubt she ever does anything else related to religion - so really she's an agnostic, since she obviously hasn't thought about it (not that all agnostics haven't thought about it, but it's long been my point of view that you can be consciously an agnostic, or unconsciously through lack of determination of your religious position. Positive determination of not having a religious position brings you to atheism. Probably). Dad claims that he doesn't know, but that he thinks something else is going on, and I think he's inclined towards Christianity simply because he doesn't know about anything else.

However, I was raised merely with the morals and ethics imposed by the laws of the United Kingdom - which are essentially Christian I guess, minus the God parts. Oh, and a few extra ones by my parents, because they're nice people They never sent me off to church, or holiday club (a week of activites organised by the local churches each summer holiday for school children, involving singing, making a mess and learning about Jesus), or sunday school, or anything like that. I recall having an illustrated bible for children when I was little, but I spent many years thinking it was a work of fiction, not realising the significance it holds to some people (although not usually the illustrated childrens' version, I'll admit).

Queex: from your definition of a cult, I see that the Roman Catholic church, in whose beliefs I was steeped from birth until 16, scores highly. Are they a cult? Does it matter? I owe them a great deal, but I also hold a lot against them. I would certainly be a very different person if I had not been brought up Catholic.

<>

That's because of your personal beliefs. Consider a terrible example where I am a believer in the One True God, and you are my child.

I could not possibly take the risk that you might die before you had reached an age where you could recognise the OTG. The consequences for me, and my beloved child, are too serious. If you died without being initiated, how could you ever join the Son of the Morning, and rule by his side forever...?

You would be immersed in the One True Faith from your very first moments. I wouldn't be doing my duty as a loving and caring parent if I did otherwise. It's a part of the duties of a parent to take decisions on behalf of their children, until the children are able to do this for themselves. Surely you can't disagree with this?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

<>

From the latter, I don't think your religious upbringing was 100% Christian. Then again, the birth of Mithras has been commemorated on December 25th for 2500 years.... [Acknowledgement: Thank you, Colonel Sellers, for this delightful snippet.]

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Hmm. I tend to think that any religion that treats those who aren't able to form informed religious opinions (like minors or those with some mental handicaps) as 'unbelievers' until they undergo some right is degenerate.

Catholic Church as a cult? Possibly. It probably depends how lapsed you are. Or where you draw the line in the indicator sweepstakes.

Actually, as a Christian-Pagan-Atheist, I get to celebrate Yule and Christmas. Which will come in handy when I start a family of my own because I can spend Yule with my partner and children and Christmas with my parents.

<>

But don't you accept that someone - such as I described - who doesn't share your beliefs is morally obliged to act in the best interests of their children? And who else can make that judgement but the child's parents?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

They'd be obliged to act. I'd be obliged to try and dissuade or stop them. Or in a less confrontational manner undermine their 'good' work when their back is turned .

You would act toward children directly against their parents wishes and judgement? I'm not convinced you have the right to do that (although I wouldn't want you to think I was not open to persuasion).

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

This is something I've felt when in the presence of two of my cousins. Their parents are raising them as good Christians, which is, they feel, the right thing to do. However, the temptation to say other things, to get the kids to challenge what they're hearing, is incredible when I'm around them, but I try not to. I'm not entirely sure why - I guess it's rude, really.

>>>But don't you accept that someone - such as I described - who doesn't share your beliefs is morally obliged to act in the best interests of their children? And who else can make that judgement but the child's parents?<<<

The parents are the ones with the children's best interests in mind. It *is* rude to try to de-convert those children against the parents' wishes. So how about talking to those people who were *former* children of religion-inundating parents? (We know *that's* possible--how many members of this forum "de-converted"?) If a person isn't aware enough to consider alternatives to his childhood religion, trying to talk to him about it as a child probably wouldn't have helped anyway.

s and s,
~Wes

So it's rude to try to de-convert children against their parents' wishes. Does that mean one should always refrain from doing it? Effecting social change generally involves being rude to someone, at some point, by someone's standards. Maybe freeing the minds of the children is worth the risk of offending the sensibilities of the parents.

Many people who were de-converted probably talked to someone who influenced them. Would we all rather have never been exposed to free-thinkers on the grounds that our parents might not have wanted that, and it's therefore "rude"?

To make a totally unfair comparison, would it be equally "rude" to rescue children whose parents are indoctrinating them in some weird cult that involves ritual abuse, or something?


just being a 's advocate.....

ELD asks <>

Yes, I'm sure that's OK. Children are a special case because they are not (wholly) responsible for themselves until they reach majority.

GTB said <>

MaW said "rude"; I would say "wrong".

<>

Yes: approach their parents, or wait until they reach majority. *Then* they're responsible for themselves, and normal 'rules of engagement' (common courtesy, and so on) apply.

<>

Society has already allowed for this by framing laws that determine what parents can do with their children, and what they can't.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

This is true, as abusing children is illegal. If you ever (Goddess or appropriate deity) forbid, run into that kind of stuff, the police are where you should turn, not to your debating skills.

Hmmm... I guess the devil will need a better advocate than me on that one.

I can't advocate prostelytizing (sp?) to other people's children. I wouldn't OTOH, be opposed to leaving subversive literature lying around where they could find it, eg, a Principia Discordia outside a Sunday School.

Oooh, that's mean. But then if a religion can't stand up to the intrusion of ideas from other religions/non-religions then what good is it to anyone?

So is it wrong to teach science in school to the children of creationists? And what about compulsory religious education in schools (as in the UK) if the child's parents are atheists?

Noggin

PS My parents were (are) fundamentalists; If I hadn't been exposed to countervailing influences I might be one too . If people are to choose they must have more than one option.

I sometimes ask myself, if I wouldn´t be happier, if I had stayed strictly baptist... but then of course I would have missed the fun I have now... and then again: I wouldn´t know it´s fun and something I missed out on, and consequently wouldn´t actually have missed out on something...

But I am happy that I am what I am, even with the bad bits and bad feelings about... the ones that true christians find so revolting

"So is it wrong to teach science in school to the children of creationists? And what about compulsory religious education in schools (as in the UK) if the child's parents are atheists?"

At least parents have a choice where to send their children to school. If they're concerned about that sort of thing, they can ask about it, and at least find out before their kids are corrupted. It's the guy lurking around playgrounds, seducing other people's children aside with copies of Asimov's Guide to the Bible that has people concerned, I think.

I had a friend in college who wore a t-shirt for the punk band Bad Religion. It had a cross on it, and the band's name. We took a road trip through the Bible Belt, and I could *feel* people staring at him. He seemed oblivious, but I wondered if he was planting ideas in the heads of little kids who'd never considered that Christianity might be a *bad* religion. I like to think those kids are all iconoclastic free-thinkers now. Or serving hard time without parole.

Do you have these cars with the fishes on the back to around your places? the fundamental christians in europe use them as a sign for "hey, we are evangelical"...

Well... I´ve been thinking of putting a few of these fishes onto my car, and a shark following them trying to eat them

but! My exwife is still in that kind of christian spirit... and my children are brought up that way, and I will still have to wait until they are older teenagers before I am "allowed" to start discussing issues... but one day

The US has the fishes, and Darwin fishes as well (fishes with feet that say Darwin in them.)

Sitting around waiting for your kids to grow up before you present them with any values seems to me an odd idea. A very intelligent RC Cardinal once said, "So then we sould not teach our children English! Wait until they reach twenty-one, then let them decide. They may not want to speak English. They may want to learn Sanskrit, instead." I can't remember his name, but he's not very evangelist, and a good speaker. Anyway, values should be provided first. If the parents are freethinkers, the child should learn free thought. If they're RCs, the kids should learn RC. If they're Jainists, the kids should run away to where there's real food... I mean, no! The kids should learn Jainism. Then, when they grow old enough, our generally freethinking /society/ will present them with alternatives. But if a word I've just said is coherent, I didn't notice.

<<<> From the latter, I don't think your religious upbringing was 100% Christian. Then again, the birth of Mithras has been commemorated on December 25th for 2500 years.... [Acknowledgement: Thank you, Colonel Sellers, for this delightful snippet.]>>

What about the Pagan Godess of Spring, Eostre? The rituals of her holiday are held up to the t. Only, the RCs added in three words about Yessue, and poof! it's an RC holy day too, under /the same rituals/. Ain't them mythologies funny?