h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Why is it depressing?

I have no need to make other people believe in my own personal god concept and I always respect other people's version of god (or gods).

So if one person has a 'God experience' that somehow affects me, and I see it as something else, it really doesn't matter at all as it is all the same thing anyhow.

az

So it's irrational to apply the same process to a model of the Universe which includes Divine beings as a cause?

Here we were, enjoying a perfectly civilised conversation, and you had to mention the s-word! Seriously - I was a bit dismissive of the explanations which a non-believer might come up with; your version (above) is better.



I think humans are instinctively able to rationalise. We start from our beliefs (prejudices, and so on...) and we use anything and everything as an excuse for why what we believe is right and good!

For example, someone might claim to want limit immigration because of the strain it places on our resources, but what they believe is that we have earned what we've got, and foreigners shouldn't be able to just come here and benefit from it. [Please don't sidetrack into a discussion of racism or immigration policy. The example is to illustrate that our 'reasons' are fabricated *if necessary* to support our underlying beliefs. We all do it, as blatantly as we must. The alternative does not involve sanity.]

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

That raises an interesting point that ties in with an article you posted a link to a while back, regarding the nature of consciousness and the lack of distinction between conscious and sub-conscious.

I can't remember all the details, but one of the points it raised was that we always rationalise after the fact, anyway, and we don't have a conscious self that exists in the moment, the instant, the here and now.

This would tend to suggest that irrespective of the beliefs of the individuals concerned, an event will occur which is then rationalised.

One individual, a "believer" rationalises this to a cause involving god, perhaps through spirits, prayer, or some such, while another, a "non-believer" rationalises this to a natural physical phenomena.

Interestingly, they would both appear to be *subjectively* correct in their conclusions.

<>

ummm . . . is this just over-sensitive me or does that comment sound just the eensiest bit judgemental? Surely people can rationalise on all sorts of levels and their opinions are quite valid for them.

<>

I like that one better.

az

I see no other possibility.



While agree with all you say, Madent, I find it more interesting to observe how we sometimes lie to ourselves and others about the reasons for holding a particular view. Sometimes it's because we're ashamed of the real reasons. I'm sure there are alternative explanations in other circumstances.

Can the need to lie in this way be avoided by being totally honest with ourselves about what we feel and why, or am I being simplistic?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"does that comment sound just the eensiest bit judgemental?"

Of course, but of whom? Every single one of us (you and me, too ).

Rationality is a subjective process

What? The rejection of a logical argument in favour of a value judgement? Is that what you mean?

I'm sure that the explanation would be much more complex but, see if this makes sense.

We feel ashamed because one of the values imprinted on us by our society holds that logical argument, particularly in a social context (legislation & government etc.), is more valid than an individual's value judgement.

But we still have a tendancy to operate in accordance with our own values.

This results in an internal conflict to follow one's desires as opposed to meeting society's expectations.

I don't believe that all rationalising is lying. Okay, often we rationalise to make certain pieces of the puzzle fit together in a way we feel more comfortable with. But sometimes rationalising *can* be a way of getting closer to our own personal truth (yes, totally subjective, of course).

<>

I agree with this and think that in some cases, rationalising is about maintaining one's own personal beliefs and values in world that often does not respect this.

az

Not all, but sometimes....



That's an interesting thought. Could you give an example if this, to help (me) see what you mean, Az?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

As Midsummer's Day/Summer Solstice/longest day draws near, can anyone enlighten me ( - ) as to when the pagan religious 'feast day' occurs? Is it June 21st? Matholwch, MaW, or anyone else?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

hi Pattern Chaser,



Wondering about examples I could give that would come close to the personal truth thing. Perhaps this will sound unimportant, but I recently got a message from my youngest brother that he was not well, that he was strung-out on crack and totally f**king up his life, that he was afraid, that he wanted any sort of help. (he lives in Canada, I live in Spain - very hard to help from this distance). Anyhow, I got on the phone to him, tried to convince him to call his ex-therapist etc etc. Did what I could. A couple of days later I found out that his 'cry for help' - although real - was not something he wanted to back up by acting on the help and suggestions I had given him.

I have since rationalised this as - I've done all I can do.

The 'personal truth' bit I had to swallow and accept was that I was not prepared to get on a plane to Canada in order to do more.

This says things about me - to myself - that I am not particularly proud of. But then again, had to accept this personal truth about myself.

Probably this is not a very good example. Perhaps too personal.

Will try to come up with something more abstract about 'personal truth' being supported by rationalisation.

az

Yes:

Az, I would see what you describe as you overcoming the normal process of rationalising, which I understand to be self-deceit. Rationalising would be you saying to yourself "I simply don't have the means to get to Canada, so there's no more I can do." You were more honest with yourself than this, and faced an uncomfortable truth as a result. Good for you! Does this 'definition' of rationalising feel OK to you?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Pattern,

I dunno. In fact, I actually and quite simply don't have the means to go to Canada at all (am still worrying about how I'm going to pay my rent this summer!). So I could have used that as a valid excuse.

The rationalisation in this instance came from saying to myself that I could not do more because I knew I didn't want to do this enough - not enough to take out another bank loan, for example.

Of course I could have done more. But I rationalised myself out of it. Hence, do not believe that rationalising is always self-deceipt. What I did was rationalising. But I didn't kid myself. And I learned something more about myself.

az

ps
thanks for the hugs everyone!

More from me too, azahar.

Sometimes not helping is the best thing you can do.

I hope it works out for your brother.

F

The midsummer solstice is nominally on the 21st of June, but because it's based on a specific alignment of the sun, it's not entirely conformant with the calendar year and so moves around a bit. I don't currently know what the exact date is this year, so I'm going to go and look it up as it's not far away and I need to prepare.

Here's a definition of fanatics and/or fanaticism, taken from http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0618-10.htm

<...the telltale symptoms of fanatics: an intolerance of dissent, a doctrine that is riddled with contradictions, the belief that one's cause has been blessed or even commanded by God, and the use of reinforcement techniques such as repetition to spread one's message.>









Sobering stuff.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

It's reminiscent of our Tony, too

It also underlies our one rule: no peddlars of The One And Only Truth; i.e. no fanatics. Welcome to the Freedom From Fanaticism Foundation?

? Not mine; not any more. He lost my (lifelong Labour) vote when he allied us with a trigger-happy fanatic, and ignored us when we took to the streets to tell him so. For me, President Blair is history; President Kennedy is the man of the future.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"