h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'll have no truck with fundamentalism. Islam is an honourable religion, a great way of life, and it is now my duty to proclaim the truth to the infidels.

(Unfortunately my ability to preach is somewhat hampered by a) the Quran being written in another language b) Allah's prohibition on translation. Nevertheless in the interests of promoting Islam I have taken it upon myself to locate an honourable translation.)

Surah 14. Abraham
5. We sent Moses with Our signs (and the command). "Bring out thy people from the depths of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the Days of Allah." Verily in this there are Signs for such as are firmly patient and constant,- grateful and appreciative.

* wanders off, finding it unconvincing *

It's mission week at University right now. My Christian housemates are leaving not-so-subtle leaflets around advertising "The Truth. The Way. The Life. Jesus Christ" and all these events CU are organising to try and convert people.

I was tempted to go to one of them today and argue with them, but none of the topics they're supposed to discuss really lend themselves well to it - probably why they chose them, the clever people.

It is not my place to force unbelievers to convert to Islam. Go as you will about your business, for only then you will only come to know the truth.

Surah 10. Jonah

99. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!

100. No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.

I must confess I have recently become intrigued by Islam, and particularly the Quran.

As far as I can tell (on a brief perusal), Islam is not naturally a violent religion. I wonder where "fundamentalism" actually sprang from. Does anyone know? Is the product of some particular sect or division in Islam?

I'm trying to pick out some excerpts (as you can see) from the Quran that might be of interest, but it is difficult.

Were you all aware for instance that the Quran mentions Adam, Noah and the flood, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Jonah, Mary and Jesus? It even concedes the virgin birth.

Madent said "I must confess I have recently become intrigued by Islam, and particularly the Quran."

Yes, recent events have served to point us in that direction.

Madent also said "As far as I can tell (on a brief perusal), Islam is not naturally a violent religion. I wonder where "fundamentalism" actually sprang from. Does anyone know? Is the product of some particular sect or division in Islam?"

I think it sprang from the heart of the human psyche. There are certainly christian, moslem and hindu 'fundamentalists', or at least I've heard them described as such on the news. Doubtless all religions are plagued with them.

As I understand it, 'fundamentalists' interpret their chosen scriptures in a literal (or similarly absurd) fashion to support and justify their own authoritarian view of life. Trivial details (such as the actual religion they profess to follow) don't bother these people. I think 'authoritarians' is the accurate term to describe them.


So-called 'honour killings' - where women are murdered by their own families if their conduct besmirches the honour of the family - aren't in the Quran either, but they happen frighteningly frequently. A 69-year-old was jailed here in Britain a day or two ago. He stabbed his daughter 19 times for having a secret boyfriend in her bedroom.


God this is bleak stuff! What about the huge contribution made by Islam as the (human) world emerged from the Dark Ages?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

> "all religions are plagued with [fundies]"

I have heard that fundamentalist Hindus were causing problems in some countries, so that one too. But I never heard of a fundamentalist Buddhist... (perhaps I haven't looked hard enough?)

I've never heard of a fundamentalist Wiccan either.

I guess that's because we don't have scriptures or a belief that the entire world should follow Wicca.

Like all humans, fundies seek to rationalise and justify the beliefs they hold to be true. They are remarkably capable of selective perception in such matters, seizing upon those things that support their views, while failing to notice those that don't.

[Have you by any chance noticed this weakness in others, but not in yourself? Odd that you are the only human who's unaffected, don't you think? See how deep-seated it is?]

I think buddhism and wicca offer in their teachings less potential support or justification for fundies than islam, christianity, and hinduism do. As Lucinda and MaW imply, there must be some difference that accounts for this. I'm not sure it's as simple as wanting to convert the world to your own way of thinking, although that can't help...

Buddhism/wicca ... 1
Rest of the (religious) world ... 0

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Is Fundamentalism in all its flavours a peculiarity of all of the religions that worship Jehovah/God/Allah?

Todays thought for the day.

Surah 22. The Pilgrimage

17. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

Oops, just spotted Lucinda's reference to fundamentalist Hindus.

Well, I'm not sure about Buddhism, but Wicca and those religions related to it (including Druidism and many forms of neo-Paganism) generally hold that it is up to the individual to find the path that is right for them, and they should find it by themselves. Wiccans don't actively attempt to convert people - we're limited to answering questions. Forcing somebody into a faith they don't hold in their heart isn't a good thing, so you just have to let people find their own path.

Also because of this, you'll rarely find two Pagans who aren't part of the same coven who share exactly the same beliefs - and from what I hear, it's rare within covens as well, although they obviously have to have some similarity of belief to be able to work together.

Maybe that's why the "convert everyone with fire and sword" mentality hasn't come over... although it might also be because those religions as practised today are largely modern interperetations of old beliefs, so we've seen quite enough of holy war, thankyou very much.

Islam doesn't attempt to convert people either, it seems. one of Madent's bits from the Quaran (post 263) expressly stated that "no soul believe, except by the will of Allah." These sections indicate that nobody should try to convert. a sensible view, really.

Don't Buddhists have a fundamental opposition to violence of all kinds? This would tend to limit war-like behaviour.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

That would kind of explain it, yes.

And good for Islam with the no conversion part *applauds*

The yearly report for the church some of my friends go to had a section on Evangelism, and encouraged churchgoers to make lists of people to pray for, so that they might come to a better life with Jesus Christ, or something like that. My life's fine as it is!

I used to attend a church 18-30 group. There was a discussion one Sunday evening about not just being friends with Christians but also making friends with non-Christians as you could then 'plant seeds in their hearts' and bring them to Christ. It was one of the events I can see that really turned me against Christianity. Most of my friends were non-Christians and I wasn't friends with them to convert them but because they were great people that I loved being with. It drove home to me the 'them and us' feeling among Christians and how shallow they could be. Becoming friends with someone just to convert them was an idea I found utterly appalling and hypocritical. Friendship was reduced to nothing more than a means to an end. It also made me realise how wonderful, genuine and caring my non-Christian friends were compared to the bunch of hypocrites I encountered within the church. There a a few people who pray for me that I might return to the fold (or whatever), I find it almost an infringement of my right to believe what I want. I don't go around telling people with religious beliefs that they should become atheists and I don't see why I should be harassed by people trying to persuade me to convert to a religion.

Just my little rant for today.

> "Don't Buddhists have a fundamental opposition to violence of all kinds? This would tend to limit war-like behaviour"

Kind of like the "thou shalt not kill" commandment for christians?

<>

Could this be a consequence of your perspective, do you think?

Put yourself in the position of a 'true believer'. You honestly and sincerely believe that you have found the Truth, and it gives you great pleasure and comfort. You see people around you who have not (yet) discovered the Truth as you have.

Any decent and reasonable person in your position would try to offer those around them the chance to be as happy as you are, by showing them the Truth. To engage them in a friendly manner is surely the best way of going about this work of great good and import, n'est ce pas?

[Only when or if people make it clear to you that they don't wish to share in your good fortune does there come a point where you should *not* attempt to pass on the Good Word. Up until then, it is the moral duty of any decent person to pass on what they believe to be good, right and useful (vital?) information.]

I share some of your impatience and discomfort, deackie. I'm *not* defending the sort of evangelism you describe, just pointing out a different perspective. It's so easy to think or say "Surely these people can see how wrong-headed their views are, as I can?", and so difficult to appreciate that these people *don't* see things as you do. Everyone thinks their own behaviour is reasonable and acceptable, even if no-one else agrees with them.

Pattern-chaser

People notice things that support their views, but fail to notice those that don't. How likely is it that *you* are the only member of the human race who's unaffected?

Definitely. It is _very_ hard to see things from the other person's point of view. If they honestly and truly believe they're in the right and that the unbelievers will go to Hell, then I suppose it's their way of being nice. What a shame the world isn't just divided into Christians and Atheists though - but there are all those other religions as well, and that's where it gets complicated.

> "What a shame the world isn't just divided into Christians and Atheists though"

What a horrible thought!