h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

In your text you say:

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what does this mean? I think it's mostly men who need to to the work for womens rights, because they have to change their attitudes and methodologies; most women are fairly keen on equality, even if they are pretty apathtic about actually taking it. I know that Germaine Greer argues that women are the biggest enemies of equality, and that they are too stupid to know that they deserve better, but i think that the first real step to equality has to be a fundemental change in the minds of men, because it's men that don't accept the equality of women. And until all women are free, no man is free.

PS. I realise that you were trying to make a point that you weren't anti-men, but it kind of made you sound like an apologist.

Well, I'm happy you asked for an explanation. Women fall victim to sexism, and compete with one another for a man. As long as we purchase diet pills and makeup, to try and impress someone else, we're not equal to men.

And as long as we dress ourselves up and compete for a husband, men are going to have an easier time upholding the Patriarchy, because we're living up to the old ideals.

Everyone has to change their ideas. Women need to educate themselves as much as men do.

I find it disgusting that women change their appearance to fight some standard of beauty that truly applies only to 8% of U.S. society. And beauty is transitory. I'm not speaking for EVERY woman, of course, but this happens all too often, and it is discouraging.

They teach self-esteem to all the little kiddies in the States at school, but what we aren't learning is self-respect. Consider talk shows on tv that air the hardships of young women who don't know who the father of their child is. After sooo many times seeing this theme, we're sent a message that it's ok to sleep around.

A woman who is dignified and educated will be a feminist. A woman who likes to wax her bikini line and eyebrows and wear a wonderbra probably won't want to support Women's Liberation.

Does it make more sense now!??

I think a lot of men accept women as equal, and they overlook how media insists on sexism. I feel a number of women are convinced of the same thing.

Yes, i am inclined to agree, but don't fall into the trap that in order to be a good feminist you're not alowed to care about your appearance, or want to attract a partner in fairly conventional ways. Freedom is the ability of all of us to be able to do just what we want and who we are.

As the internationale says "Freedom is merely privilege extended / unless enjoyed by one and all".

Being a feminist does not mean refusing to dress as men / fashion / the patriarchy dictates, but to only wax your bikini line because you want to, and not because it is expected of you (and lets face it - who wants to!).

::giggles::

Oh I agree with you. But you shouldn't just dress yourself up to obtain a man. There's more to life than that. Respect yourself enough to KNOW what sort of person you are, and who you need in your life... yes...

I've been very busy... I'll probably read this later and wonder what I was trying to say....

Well spake, everyone.

I think it's a fundamental problem with everything - not to sound like it's an omnipresent THING that can't be controlled, but men aren't taught to look beyond convention, so it doesn't occur to them, and women aren't taught to look beyond convention, because it doesn't occur to them. And when a man acknowledges that women are people, the ones that haven't thought of that and don't want to break convention cast him into some other group, just as women who deicde they're not going to do what they "should" will be outcasts (anyone know a girl who was called a "tomboy"?)

Of course, I'd noticed a double-standard about women's rights as they were in the sixties and whatnot: As long as a woman doesn't do things that women have always done, they're intelligent and liberated. But what about the ones who want to do things because that's what they want to do? I know women that *want* to just get married and have kids... Or women who just *want* to be elemntary-school teachers. And often they're shot down for being brainwashed. It's a very sad thing.

I also noticed that women start wearing makeup, and then they get into a pattern of belief that they "can't go outside without it", because they "look horrible". (Perhaps getting too used to seeing themselves with it?)

On the flipside are the guys that claim to like women better without makeup, and then their jaws drop at the first sight of an over-madeup generic model. Not very consistent.

There are a lot of problems, a lot of them on the small scale, that need to be gutted out before things are really going to be able to change. I think a lot of it is also how we raise our kids: Can the boys learn ballet? Can the girls take apart the computer? And are they going to see mommy taking apart the computer, or daddy; because the rest of the images is what your parents did.

The boomers still have the unconscious reflex that doctors are men. The children of the boomers are beginning to break down those sorts of unconscious barriers, but it;s taking some effort. Perhaps our children will live in a world where they are free to be who they are, not just what they are: woman or man shouldn't make a difference, except in considering the different strengths. But even then, more attention has to be payed to the individual than the label.

Lets face it, we, men and women, are all broken.

We don't HAVE to be.... the mere fact that we're discussing this proves that....

Well, and the upside is that - you know the old saying - if it's broken, fix it.

There's a lot to be cured. We may not know where to start, but at least we know what has to be done.

the so-called "women's issue" that always makes me mad is domestic violence and rape - i suppose it is a problem for women because it is women who are most often (although not exclusively) the victims - but really, in many cases, it is men who need to change their attitudes - grrrr!

not that we can't help them along too

span
ps do you have the thursdays in black campaign where you are? the idea is to wear black on thursdays to campaign for an end to rape and violence - it is run on campuses in NZ by women's groups generally

hmmm... the trouble with the whole "wear makeup for yourself, because you want to" is that who decides what YOU want? do you really think what you want springs from the core of your being? most likely, much of your desire is manufactured by the consumer culture we grow up in, which is yet another product of patriarchy.

i don't think somehow who has grown up in western society without taking serious time and effort to deconstruct all the crap that is force fed to us (women and men) can truly say they "want" to shave or wear makeup, or bench press more, or whatever silly thing it is...

ok, don't know if this is making any sense at all... what i'm trying to say is: we are all brainwashed to want the ideals put forth to us by patriarchy. unless we make a conscious, constant effort to unearth our true desires we cannot truly say that we really want what we think we want.

well, that's about as good as it gets right now.

zem.

Ah... yes... very well put!!!! THANK YOU for that!!!

We don't have the Black Thursday thingy...

Forgive me... it's my bedtime...

So glad this Alliance is getting into action!!! YAY!!!

>>most likely, much of your desire is manufactured by the consumer culture we grow up in, which is yet another product of patriarchy<<

The so called triumph of feminism and the pinnacle of our modern equalitarian society is that we now have 'womens' pages in the daily newspapers, 'womens' literature, 'womens' health centres, 'womens' clubs and bars - but we don't have 'mens' pages in the papers, 'mens' health centres etc. Why because all the pages in newspapers are for men unless otherwise directed. Men are the default audience, and women learn to understand the world through this patriarchal filter, and learn to observe themselves not as they see themselves but as they are see by 'society' (ie the patriarchy), and men of course learn through the same filter, and learn the same lies, the same false ways of looking at and understanding and expectations of women. The patriarchy lies to and denies us all happiness, by setting us apart. Only when women's magazines (and men's magazines) are an anachronism will feminism have started to get a toe hold.

Anyone who wants to see quite how insanely deep this cultural brainwashing goes should read John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" - a fantastic and deeply interesting and entertaining book.

OOO... I like books!!!

Oops, this is a reply to post ...14? 15? The one before the one above this one. (Anyone follow that?)

About the difference between "women's" versus everything else being inherently for men.

I work in a used bookstore (well, I did for five years, I'm quitting now, but anyway) and one of the sections I maintain is all the spirituality stuff. Something interesting I noted is this: There's a lot of literature by and for and about women, a lot of women's spirituality books, we have a whole section, but there are only four or five books on men's spirituality. Granted, this is a used bookstore so it;s not completely statistically accurate, but it is a relatively good respresentation of what's out there. I find it odd because the majority of spirituality books are, barring gender-biased wording, aimed at both men and women.
Why, then, this gap in the men's spirituality?
I think part of it is that women have, in the last thirty or so years, made a real effort to identify themselves and their subculture as women. They have made the effort to break free and define themselves, to explore what's going on. But men I think are less inclined to do so; I think they are in denial that they need to go through some sort of revision of how they see themselves. Part of it is culture, the idea that men have to be "strong", "independent", "unemotional", and all that, and some of it is men just not wanting the change. They've become comfortable with being the center of the world, and they're reluctant to give it up.

There was a huge issue, I remember, with the SATs (college testing) because all of it was worded to masculine logic, and it was causing girls to get lower scroes because the questions would lead you halfway down the track to the right answer - if you had a man's brain. Girls had to backtrack to the start and *then* figure out the problem from scratch, thus causing them to lose time, causing them to get lower scores, thus causing the perpectuation of the belief that men are smarter. (Science was trying to prove that one for years; some still are.)

And where I am we don't have Black Thursday (is that what it was called?), but we do have the Take Back the Night rally, which usually happens in March (maybe different times of the year for different parts of the country). It's one night where a lot of people, women and men, walk in a huge group almost like a parade, through the streets, usually holding candles, in an effort to "take back the night" - because it used to be safe to walk the streets at night with a friend without being raped or assaulted.

We have a long way to go, but with a lot of effort and a little luck we can get things on equal footing. (And survive even, maybe.)

Oh. Wow.

::sigh::

And of course the thing that stops us (women and men) reclaiming the night is not rapists and muggers, but our own fear, a fear created again not by those criminals but by the media's love afair with rape and murder.

It's not often i have a lot of time for Maralyn Manson, but i went to see 'Bowling for Columbine' again the other day, and he really did seem to hit the nail on the head.

Incidentally, if you've not seen 'Bowling for Columbine'- do. As soon as possible, by any means necissary, then see it again with freinds. Fantastic stuff, brilliant film making. You will spend half of the film laughing to burst, the other with your heart in your mouth and your head in your hands.

Ah... that film has been mentioned time and again in my Fiction Writing Workshop!!!