h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

What do the owners of this cafebar think about the distopia that is the current situation in Zimbabwe.
They;the world cannot seriously let such acts of racism continue into the 21st century.Thank God the U.S have done the right thing (for once)
Personally i believe Mugabe's assets should be frozen and the guy and all his cronies somehow penalised.Without affecting the country's innocent citizens.Is this possible? Hows it going to end?

Sorry for being a in such a place
Have a and to mull it over

welcome Boswell,

I have seen some awful reports of whats going on in Zimbabwe. There was a repost on the Channel 4 News (UK) the other day about the violence and terror happening over there. There's a false perception that only white farmers and landowners are subject to violence, but the story I saw featured a prominent black farmer whose farm has been trashed. He was a part of the Movement for Democratic Change.

Mugabe's thugs also seem to have attacked children whose parents were working. The most plausible explaination for what otherwise seems to be a random beating of these kids was that an MDC member lived next door... And with the burning of crops, the collapse of the internal food market and export trade it seems horribly likely that there will be food shortages before long.

And then we can all witness the delights of Mugabe discussing / demanding aid from the UK and international community, yet objecting to any terms and conditions that will be an inevitable part of that aid... Political and diplomatic obsfucation and fudge as people starve.

Still, isn't there an election due next year? Perhaps things will get worse in the short term, but then get better in the long run.

I might ask a pal of mine from SA. to stick his opinion here too...

What do you reckon to it? From where do you speak??

pj

x

Hello! The situation in Zim is a total buggerup (I hope I don't get moderated for that !) It seems totally to be Mugabe trying to cling to power ... but the problems come from some decades back. When Zim became independent they did not work hard enough to fix inequalities, to calm tempers and to reconcile people. They have been having their problems over the years; the common people have been having it hard. The leaders, Mugabe included, did not work hard enough for their own people. So, the people have been growing evermore dissatisfied. And Mugabe has been growing very used to the soft seats of power. So a few years ago he got the idea that he may placate his people by starting to blame the problems on the land distribution inequality and the white farmers. It's been a political tactic. Unfortunately not all of the Zimbabweans fell for it. So you got the MDC who says the country needs overall reform, not the elimination of the white farmers. The current violence targets this opposition group even more than it does the white farmers. For every white who is attacked and beaten, or even killed, the same and worse happens to 10-20 blacks. The whites are more in the spotlight though, and this suits Mugabe and his thugs fine. They can blow the racism bugle that way. But the fact is they're working to intimidate mainly the rural black workers into supporting Zanu PF instead of the MDC. There's also an ethnic element ... the majority of Mugabe's support comes from a single ethnic group, which is intent on keeping on dominating other groups.

The amount of shameless ruthlessness displayed in the conflict quite surpasses comprehension. The other night on TV they showed how a white family was attacked. Their dog was shot and looters came and started methodically removing everything of value on their farm (it was a huge farm with millions of dollars worth of equipment and provisions). They complained to the police ... next shot showed them interviewing a government minister. A TV crew was with them. The government guys did not even mind. The minister himself sat on one of the looted bags of fertilizer and there interviewed them. He said they shot their own dog, and blamed them and other farmers! He said they are purposefully spreading rumours of people attacking them to make the government look bad. He said they were criminals. In the background looters still continued removing supplies and equipment. The minister said that if they were willing to be civilized and co-operate they could stay in the country but otherwise they had to get out. He said the government of Zimbabwe was totally fed up with conflict-inciting whites like themselves and if they were not willing to reform they had better get out.

They got out. They left just about all their possessions. A short while later the farm was totally gutted - either looted or vandalized, millions of dollars worth of equipment lots and destroyed - plus their house and personal belongings totally trashed of course.

You see, that usually makes the news ... but the attacks on rural blacks don't because everybody is so used to Africans brutalising other Africans already.

Zim' economy is already trashed. There are crises in fuel, and soon there will be a food shortage. The agricultural industry has already been wasted, flatlined by the antics of the land grabbers. Meanwhile the Zim government is saying it condemns the land grabs, but will not send the police against the land grabbers because they don't want to kill their own people - the land grabbers are supposedly veterans from the independence struggle though that was over twenty years ago and many of the current thugs are in their early twenties!

What does one do about a problem like that, though? Suggestions wellcome ... what I say is somehow the underlying problems need to be fixed. Mugabe must go ... but who will take his place? Also it must be legit. No more coups, please!

Will things get better in the long run? As in, one century, two centuries, or maybe a millennium? Nowhere in Africa do things appear to be set to get better. We have all our economic problems, PLUS ethnic conflict, PLUS the AIDS crisis, and we are supposed to keep up with the First World, or get lost! We're already lost.

Its great to hear from somebody who has a better idea of whats going on.Thanks E.M
Robert Mugabe is still meeting other commonwealth leaders in October/November ? time though.Apparently it will take too much time and 'red tape' (i cant spell beauracy)to boot him out and Zimbabwe from the commonwealth

Its great to hear from somebody who has a better idea of whats going on.Thanks E.M
Robert Mugabe is still meeting other commonwealth leaders in October/November ? time though.Apparently it will take too much time and 'red tape' (i cant spell beauracy)to boot him out
So we can only hope that this meeting is productive and he is persuaded to change his policies.Somehow
World peace is not imminent ~sigh~

Hey Boswell! Thanks for being interested. I'll tell a lot more soon! I live in South Africa, less than two hundred miles from the Zim border. We knew people who lived there, but they're out now.

Are you aware of the killings of the farmers in South Africa?

Yes ,im aware.But you know the biggest thing this week is the terrorist bombs in America.Or the 'Mayhem in Manhatten'.
Its been said that this is 'Black September' for the arab world or at least for extremist groups.This is because in the past they've lost some of their followers to the West.
In the last few Septembers, terrorists have bombed American embassys in Tanzania and Kenya.Also this Bin laden guy authorised the previous bombing of the WTC's twin towers a few years back.
Vengence is not the answer.Moral shaming is.
God bless America

Yes ,im aware.
But you know the biggest thing this week is the terrorist bombs in America.Or the 'Mayhem in Manhatten'.
Its been said that this is 'Black September' for the arab world or at least for extremist groups.This is because in the past they've lost some of their followers to the West.
In the last few Septembers, terrorists have bombed American embassys in Tanzania and Kenya.Also this Bin laden guy authorised the previous bombing of the WTC's twin towers a few years back.
Vengence is not the answer.Moral shaming is.
God bless America

I'm not sure moral shaming is the answer either. I think, in the LONG term, the answer is encouraging people to appreciate and understand themselves and each other as much as possible, and forging so many links between people worldwide that there will not be any kind of perception of 'us' versus 'them' between different countries and groups.

Moral shaming implies that the
US and other countrys like the U.K
have some kind of perfect moral record
from which they can sit back and accuse
the world of being evil this is
a joke because most of the problems in the
world (including middle eastern extremism)
are caused by the west and neo-liberalism.
Let us not forget that it was the US that
trained bin ladien the US that gave the groups from
which the taliban would emerge money for arms
so they could fight the Russians and then
gave no money for aid when the battle was over.
The west has NO moral high ground on which to
stand.
The deaths in the world trade centre where a terrible
terrible thing but so is the deaths of millions in
Africa from aids yet we do not bomb the giant multinational
drugs companies who could easily afford to let Africa
make its on generic copies of aids drugs but instead
for the goal of shareholder profit pursue copyright enforcement
that will kill millions.
There are many more examples of the evils of what
Bush rather racist calls the civilised world
but I am not just saying
that the west must sort out its own evils before dealing
with the world, the wests evils are the CAUSE of the worlds
evils. The only solution is to unite against global capitalism.

I think that there isn't such thing as 'the only solution.' Lots of the time we seem to be looking for a quick fix answer (42)

...I don't think there is one. The way I see it there are a massive myriad of possibilities for the future. Each of us has an input to that future but some more than others - eg if George W said something really dumb right now (whaddathechancesofthathuh?) and *I* said something really dumb - like 'lets bomb China' I reckon you'd be more worried by Bush's ranting than mine...

Yes JK, global capitalism is a big problem - the way *I* see it is that capitalism per se is not the problem - the problem is that what we have to deal with ATM is capitalism for the poor and weak, and protectionism, state aid and a kind of socialism for the rich. Just look at the investment in R&D of military technologies - which kick started the western dominance of civil aviation, computer technologies, to name but two. War is great for our old chums in the Military Industial Complex. Or look at the protectionist policies of EU trade rules and farming subsidies compared to the WTO trade 'liberalisation' imposed on the third world, forcing them to import foreign grain and foodstuffs as thier home produce is priced out by Big Business.

Add to that the fact that policy is shaped and controled by a small elite with certain shared backgounds and assumptions. The 'planners' of the world - the Kissingers and Blairs and high level advisors who bravely take on the responsibilty for the rest of us to 'know' what is 'right' and lead us to 'justice and freedom' by using extra-judicial force to impose what they think of as the right solutions. The arrogance of these men never fails to astonish - 'specially given how regularly they f**k up. Such as training and arming Bin Laden in a decade or so ago, or that nice Mr Hussein, the lovely Mr Pol-Pot - all of whom were 'our guys' for a while.

Thier imposed solutions are almost always a failure, eg2. forcing through WTO and IMF loans that make client states produce cash crops instead of food for thier population. So a few years back they had so many states producing coffee that there was a glut of coffee on the market - and whoops! the cash crop fails to reap the promised cash and the IMF loan gets ever-more unpayable...

This is becoming a rant and has been some time coming. I'd advise anyone who can to find out about and read up on Susan George's 'Lugano Report' much of it is online, and makes chilling but enlightening reading...

There's just so many factors to consider. I honestly feel that the 'overthrow global capitalism' stance is too simplistic. In Utopia, clearly an expensivley educated, carefully-managed simian idiot would not be elected to head the world superpower by an ill-informed and apathetic electorate. For that not to happen would require an utter overhaul of world politics, education, class, inheritance and the punch-card vote system.

In short, the only hope I realisticly see for the future is based on long term reviewing of attitudes and actions. i reckon that we need an holistic approach and change just about everything. Positivity, love, kindness, knowledge and consideration are what we all need to lift us from this dytopian nightmare world of terror and fear.

If we don't change direction we are gonna end up where we are headed - an angry violent world of diminishing supplies and increasing fear.

Vive la Evolution!

I think when i said 'moral shaming' I may have got the perpective wrong.I probabley meant it to be shame from the Islam world against the terrorists.Specifically the type of Muslims that the terrorists have some faith in (I think it might be the Shi'ite-well its a complicated religion,much divided and sub divided.)
But JK you are right,after more investigation of the subject-the west,particularly the USA and the UK don't have a leg to stand on when morals enter the equation.Meddling in other countries affairs is what many depts and branchs of govt.like to do from time to time.
Aid and help to improve 'developing' countries should only be applied if these people actually want it.Whereas taking sides in a war can be incredibly risky-take the can of worms that was the balkans (and still is) prominent
I'll just finish by saying that Israel are currently mirroring US and UK foreign policy- by going after a population(Taliban supporters and innocent Afghans/Palestinians) instead of the individuals (Al quaeda network/Assassinators of Israeli minister)
They dont need to use such ham handed methods

Boswell

'[We need an]utter overhaul of world politics, education, class, inheritance and the punch-card vote system and a
reviewing of attitudes and actions.We need an holistic approach'

I agree with pjenny the question is how can we
achieve this ?
Will people really just give up
there positions of power and become humanity loving
nice guys, no of coerce not. Not only because
they selfishly cling to the current set of affairs
that benefits them so much but because they are so
entrenched in the system that they can not see beyond
that system. To be honest I dont think that the people
at the head of the IMF and the UN and corporate heads
etc are 'bad people' per say if they where it would
be the case that we could replace them with nice
people and the system would then work for the good of
us all but in reality it is the capitalist system that
forces these people act in the way that they do, the nature
of the capitalist economy requires exploitation, imperialism
etc thus the only way we can ever really have a utopia
is if we over throw the current system and replace it with
one of self rule and communistic organisation.
How ever in the short term (ie up to the long awaited
and possibly still a wile off revolution) I do agree that
some socialist controls on the economy (like minimum wages)
,ethical consumerism and aid (charity) can make a small
but worth wile difference.
JK the unwise

I think that the loose coalition of the left (meaning left in a very broad sense, to include anti-capitalist demonstrators, the anti war movement, alternative lifestyles and growing networks within the west and across the world) needs to unite and become more vocal. More teachins, more understanding and communication could allow us to find out more about the problems and how they can be solved.

Just as a starter, we need to reform the workplace, and make the international labour organisation as well funded as the WTO. We need environmental action on global and local levels - from campaigning to enforce the Kyoto agreement to local recycling schemes and legislation to prohibit excess packaging. And we need to stop all bombing, have total global weapons decommissioning, a world truth and reconciliation summit, and try Henry Kissinger for warcrimes.

Its a real shame that we missed the opportunity of the millenium for such grand gestures and bold changes. Now is the time to seriously reconsider... I wish I could have a chance to sit the top 200 bods of the world down in some conference room, give them a piece of my mind and then lock them in... I was going to say until they changed their minds, but think that would take about 5 years of intense holistic training with the likes of Yoda, Tony Benn and Douglas Adams. Since one is a fictional puppet, one is dead, and I wouldn't really wish 5yrs with that lot on Mr Benn, I think I'd just leave them locked in, have the buffet refreshed now and again, and make them spend time on the Guide to develop a proper understanding and appreciation of life the universe and everything.

Not likely I know...

But the way I see it is there are a squillion things that can be done that will get us closer to Utopia. Most important is a shift in the collective consiousness, to realise that its what we do that makes a difference. So if individuals can take positive action, and by thier attitude, actions and conversation influence others to also take similar action then things can get better. Despite this being a pollyanna-ish view, I firmly believe that its best to be positive.

Would you like to meet on the 18th at the demo? We could have a afterwards and solve the 's problems.

I read this post after the 18th
but I would have liked to have meet
and said 'hello' knowing people
on the net is weird dont you think?

Im affreid Im a raving revolutionary
socalist so I dont belive that reform
can solve any of the problems in the
long run but I do belive in a broad
left coalition and would urge every
body to put aside there differences
and unite to fight the system.

Libral reform is better then coservative
freemarketism but as long as global capital
controlls peoples life stuff will allways
be bad there is only one solution
REVOLUTION!
(its probally a a wile away though)

>Im affreid Im a raving revolutionary socalist

you can't be raving *and* apologetic sweetie? Unless this is some new meaning of the word 'raving' that I've not come across before.

It is a shame we didn't get to meet. I saw A Girl Called Ben there. The march was incredible, uplifting, massive. The speakers were great too. Its really good to see the coalition on the left taking all the issues of war, terrorism, state terrorism, and draconian anti-terrorist measures; globalisation, imperialism and double standards and and joining the dots on these issues to find an alternative framework for analysing and opposing the war.

Good luck with the revolution. I'll be with the anarchists tea collective.

A fluffy protester called Jen

Alas i havent been on h2g2 in a number of weeks so i also missed the chance to se the 'faces behind the voices'
It looks like this war is ending to give rise to more skirmishes,more terrorist attacks and the start of a huge humanitarian crisis.
Speak sooner
boswell

THE WAR IS NOT OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are still droping 'Daisy cutter'
bombs!
The US dosent give a dam about rebuilding
the nation it has destroyed, it is only
conserned with taking the 'War agaist Terroism'
further in to more poor midle eastern countrys
so it can impose its lovely global capitilism every
where!
The Isralies have just killed a three year old
Palestinian in a bungeled attempt to kill a leeding
millitant risitance fighter even though Yasser Arafat
had just secured a promise for a suspention of
the suidide attacks.
The Isralies are comparing there atacks on
palistine to Americas atacks on Afganistain
(and the US surports this comparison)
Indeed the two are both comparable they are both
unjustified and likly to increase anti-western
feelings.
Say no to US/UK intervention in Afganistan
Say no to attacks on civil libertys at home
And surport the palistinians in there fight
for freedom and land.

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