h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Thank you for posting that link to the True Love Waits site. I needed a good laugh after reading the Torture entry.
A "movement" that offers Britney Spears as a role model! You don't really need to say much more, do you?

As much as I agree with you that Britney Spears isn't the kind of role model that I think is appropriate for this kind of movement, I disagree with your subject line.

True love can and does wait. I'm only a high-schooler, and I've seen true love in other people's relationships, and I've seen that the people who wait for marriage and don't rush into things are often happier than those who don't.

As for a few of the questions asked in this talking point entry, here's a few answers: yes, parents are responsible for talking to their kids about this kind of thing, because parents are the strongest role models that we kids have. Despite hormones, kids are able to abstain from sexual intercourse before marriage. Sorry, can't remember any more of the questions. My train of thought derailed.

While reckless promiscuity involves obvious and severe medical risks, I just cannot think of a single good reason why true love SHOULD wait until some authority figure presents it with an official document. But then, I'm a devout unbeliever when it comes to religion.
Perhaps, on reflection, my previous posting was a bit too flippant. I do find True Love Waits absurd and comical, but I also find them distinctly sinister, with their fear of sexuality and their faintly fascistic talk of "moral purity".
In George Orwell's "1984", the totalitarian government encourages a movement called the Junior Anti-Sex League. Here they are, just a few years late...

True love can wait, but it shouldn't HAVE to......
BCNU - Crescent

I think that people should wait. I didn't and I regret it.

But I also think that True Love Waits should go out and get some serious relief.

What kind of authority figure do you mean? A pastor? A judge? In any event, that certificate is a pledge. If our society wasn't to the point of breaking, due to lack of sincerity in promises, there wouldn't be certificates for anything. That 'till death do us part' thing should be taken a lot more seriously.

And I don't see what you mean about their fear of sexuality. Granted, it's been a while since I've read 1984, but isn't sex outlawed by all? That's one of the reasons the main character gets arrested and brain washed by the end of the book, right? In any event, I don't think they've got a fear of sexuality. I think they just want to wait so that it can be a special union of two lovers, not just some kind of thing that they do every other night with someone else. Maybe it has been too long since I've read 1984, but I still can't think of anything more than a vague semblance. Like the difference to torture and kids throwing rocks at sticks floating by in a stream.

Yes, Afgncaap, that's exactly the sort of authority figure I mean. Beyond that, I'm not sure that I understand your first paragraph.
As for the "till death us do part" bit, I do agree that it's generally a good thing for a child to grow up in regular contact with both its parents. Beyond that, however, I see no reason why a couple should be expected to stay together come what may, even if they're making each other's lives a misery, just because they're married. Would you, for example, expect a woman to stay with a husband who routinely beats her?
In "1984", sex is compulsory for married couples - it's described as "doing one's duty to the Party" - but is otherwise banned. It is regarded as being purely for the purposes of reproduction, and the party line is that one should not do it just for pleasure.
An attitude, of course, shared IRL by many religious groups.

I started having sex as a teenager, and to the best of my knowledge it has done me little or no harm to this date. There was a great deal of sex education around and for this I am very grateful....and anyone who seeks to stop such information being available is a misguided idiot.
IMO: Sex education does not encourage experimentation any more than the highway code encourages driving.

Hear, hear. And - also like the Highway Code - sex education saves lives by teaching people how to have safe sex.

I agree with that sex education/highway code thing. But I still don't agree with some of your earlier views, Ormandroyd. You *have* looked to see what alternate religions say about sex, haven't you? If memory serves, most of the ones I've come in contact with don't discourage sex as being something used only for reproduction, but describes it as an act which should be shared between two people who are in love with each other, and have made life-long commitments to be in love with each other. That's why 1984 is considered a 'negative utopia'-even the common and mundane becomes twisted and changed by the totalitarian government standards.

If people would stop *FEARING* religion, and treat it like any other belief system (i.e. atheism), then we wouldn't get the prejudiced crap I've read in this discussion. True love waits, instead of bombarding teens with sex as the media does, gives them an alternative, celebacy. There is nothing wrong with celebacy, just as there is nothing wrong with having sex. Waiting for something has always made the thing waited for much better. So lighten up, guys.

If im not mistaken thats an amazingly moving song by Radiohead...

Anyway, true love can, and in my opinion often SHOULD wait. Ive seen far too many young people think that what they have found is true love and then when it all ens suddenly they think their life is over and ive known some who have even gone as far as attempting suicide.

These people all thought that they had found true love and should rush in, and occasionally consumate it, immediatly incase it leaves them. They have little idea what true love is about and cannot understand that if they wait a while they can find out just how serious the relationship is. The money should be used to teach children that sex is not everything and there is much more to a relationship which can be just as gratifying.

I had great sex education, mostly from my brilliant mother. It make me want to have sex, if anything the opposite. I waited till I was 18, used protection and have no regrets, unlike some of my friends.

I didn't say that ALL religions regard sex as being meant purely for procreation. But some very major ones do; notably orthodox Catholicism, which, obscenely, tries to dissuade people in some of the most extremely over-populated parts of this desperately overcrowded planet from using contraception.
Chifmas Anklebiter, you appear to be suggesting that all belief systems deserve equal tolerance and respect. So Nazism is morally on a par with, say, Buddhism, is it? Sorry. Sometimes you do have to make a choice.
I am, as previously stated, a fiercely committed unbeliever when it comes to religion, but I have friends both on-line and IRL who do follow one faith or another. I don't have a problem with that; my best soccer buddy is a Catholic! But he and I are friends because he doesn't try to impose his beliefs on me. I DO have a massive problem with those who seek to impose their religious values on others through legislation: e.g. the American religious right, with their crusades against abortion and gay rights.
I agree that celibacy can be a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, but I don't think that not having sex makes you better than someone who does have sex. If you think that all True Love Waits are doing is offering celibacy as an alternative, I suggest that you take a look at their website.
Once you get past puberty, the urge to have sex is as natural as the urges to eat, drink and breathe. TLW believe that because they repress that urge, they are morally superior. They speak of "moral purity". They believe that they have the only valid truth, and that those who fail to appreciate their wisdom must be shown the error of their ways.
If there's one thing that 40 years on this planet have taught me, it's that anyone who thinks like that must be resisted.

I think you're arguing over the wrong issue here. I think true love *can* wait, but doesn't necessarily have to.

It can wait because if the love is true, then you will forego your own desire for sex if your partner doesn't want to.

It doesn't have to if you are both ready to have sex - both physically AND emotionally. Puberty is one thing, adulthood is another.

Well, I for one have no argument with that!
In previous postings I was, of course, assuming a situation in which both parties were keen to get on with things. I may be a Godless degenerate, but I am certainly not advocating rape!
I have to say, though, that I am appalled that in the year 2000 seemingly intelligent people are still prepared to insist that nobody should have sex before marriage.
I mean, you wouldn't commit yourself to buying a pair of shoes without first checking that they fitted, would you? And even if you did, no-one would expect you to wear those shoes for the rest of your life...

I didn't mean to suggest you were advocating rape - I'm sorry if that's what I sounded like.

But you can have consentual sex that isn't entirely agreed to by both parties. Peer pressure goes a long way, especially with someone close enough to be a potential sexual partner.

What I really meant to say was that it should only happen if both parties are ready for it. The "true love can't wait" argument seems to me to be a means of pressurising the other half - "If you don't do it it means you don't love me..."

I agree that there is nothing wrong with sex outside marriage - as long as it's genuinely consentual and above all SAFE - and that includes monogamy...

And to suggest that a marriage is based predominantly on sex is ridiculous. No wonder so many people get divorced these days.

btw, I am unmarried and currently waiting for my girlfriend to be ready. Because I love her, I'll wait.

Good for you- and you do have a good point about peer pressure. I would also agree that to say that marriage is entirely based on sex is ridiculous.
I said nothing of the sort.
I would, however, suggest that, as sex is a pretty important part of life, it is perhaps rather foolish to commit yourself to a lifetime of monogamy with someone without first ensuring, via hands-on research, that the two of you are sexually compatible.

Think about this. Something that was said sparked this in me. I one of my business law classes, we learned that a minor cannot enter into contract with someone else. They cannot drink. They cannot smoke. They cannot drive in most states, and in some only when they are 16. We, as a society, restrict what a minor can and can't do (you can't skip school). Why?

Because they are not ready to make those decisions. There is a lot of growing up to do. This is why sex can wait.

As for TLW this is a quote straight from the web site explaining what a teen should pledge to do: "Believing that true love waits, I make a commitment to God, myself, my family, my friends, my future mate, and my future children to be sexually abstinent from this day until the day I enter a biblical marriage relationship." No where in there, or anywhere else does it say this makes you superior to others if you do.

As for the likeness of religion and nazis--well, the crusades weren't all that great, either. You do make Christianity today something it isn't, or shouldn't be. I hate the RELIGION myself, but I am a Christian. Why should there be so many sects of Christianity? Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, etc. They all have the same basic principls. They just don't see eye to eye on the little stuff. This is why I have become a spiritual non-denominational Christian, and will probibly stay that way for a while. It's all in what you believe. I read a sign today saying people who believe in religion are using it for a crutch. What does he believe in? Is it a crutch to him too? That's why I made the remark in my first response.

That's it, tell me what you think.

'course, I can't speak about this, as I fall into the category of 'single and desperate' - for a kiss n cuddle relationship, let alone sex.

The problem with all boys schools.... too much sexual frustration.
Then we had 30 girls and 100 boys in the sixth form; I was one of the unlucky ones.

However, I do need to get outmore...