h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'd like to echo what Oojakapiv said, and add two things:

Take a look at Emmily's suggested changes. That might give you some ideas of how you can improve the entry.

To see what entries that have already made it to the Edited Guide look like, you might want to check out some of h2g2's many Edited Entries on sports, like those at C118.

Don't give up or get too upset. As Jimster said, every entry has to go through a lot of revision before it can be Recommended, and there's nothing wrong with just listening to a few suggestions.

Emmily - simulpost with your last one, and so I'd like to add that, although granted I may be slightly dim as a rule when it comes to sports, I don't feel that I understood rugby any better now that I've read this entry. I know absolutely nothing about it, and as I said, maybe it's just because I don't 'get' sports, but I still know absolutely nothing about it, except that it seems to be a very bizarre, definitely European, game that involves a lot of tackling.

To actually be constructive, I think, Fraggle, that your introduction is where you could use the most improvements. That's where I first got confused, since I was expecting to read something about the object of the game or some other sort of idea of the basic premise. Instead, I'm faced with stuff people are yelling on the pitch and that sort of thing, and I don't even know what this game is or anything. I obviously can make some reasonable guesses here, but what if I didn't know rugby was played on a pitch, or the people it involved, or anything like that? I mean, for all intents and purposes, I could be a complete alien who thinks that rugby is like chess, or maybe even water polo (and for all intents and purposes I am, since I'm an American).

Maybe since you're all at least vaguely familiar with the game you're seeing something I'm not, but I'm just feeling very alienated by this entry. No offence or anything, but you do have to talk down a bit to us poor Americans.

I *don't* already know about rugby league Emmily - I rarely watch rugby, I haven't played it since I was at school 30 years ago, and I didn't play it much even then, so I don't know much more about rugby other than you have to pass the ball forwards and that there's this thing called a scrum. Therefore I'm a beginner.

In terms of being a beginners guide, how comprehensive is this entry? Does it tell the reader everything they need to know in order to at least go to a game of rugby and understand what's going on without having to know the minutiae of the rules?

One more thing - what differentiates rugby league from rugby union, and how would I - as an outsider - know which one I was going to see if I decided to go to a rugby game?

And what the hell are rugby league and rugby union, and how do they work, and what sort of teams are in them, and are there school and university teams that play each other, in addition to professional teams, and...

I think I'm getting more confused.

Briefly:
In tackling terms, Rugby Union is about the grapple, Rugby League is about the hit.
15 men in a Union side, 13 in League.
In Union, if you don't inadvertently give the ball to the opposition, you get to keep it - in League, you must give it up after you've been tackled six times.

Oh, and Rugby League is the sport of the working man, whereas Union is the game of the ruling classes

Ah, I always thought the difference between rugby union, and rugby league, was that one was professional, and the other amateur, though I could never remember which was which.

So some info about rugby union/league differences would be good.

Also some info about the strip (is it called a strip, same as football) and any protective clothing. (The strip and colours would give an opportunity to mention well known teams, and link to them)

You mention the ref, Fraggle, are there any other 'officials' on the pitch, if that's what it's called?

Ok, silly question alert

Why would the Ref, shout "hands away" when part of the game is throwing the ball?

Would also like to know why or in what situation he would shout "ruck"?

I learnt a little from the Entry, which I think is positive, but not enough to watch and understand a game, in answer to EMR and Ooja-Gosho

Emmily

Hang in there Fraggle! As an 'inexperienced peer reviewer' I think that by and large the Entry is good, but I would agree that if you knew absolutely nothing about the game, it's difficult to explain how the game works from the ground up. I won’t comment on the jokes (I’ve already made it clear that I like most of them).

It's probably best to mention the simple distinguishing features early, so perhaps add these sorts of comments (suitably embellished):

1. You can't pass the ball forwards (cf American Football)
2. You can drop the ball, but it can't go forward when you do so
2. The ball can (barring foul play and mistakes) be recycled after the player is tackled (cf League and American Football, where there are varying gaps in play whenever anyone holding the ball falls over)
3. Further to 2, as soon as somebody is tackled with the hands (ie no 'blocking' or taking out without the ball, as happens in American football or when the rugby ref isn't looking ) and the tackled player hits the ground they have to let go of the ball
4. At this point, the forwards protect the ball and hopefully get it back from the large pile of bodies called a 'ruck', while the opposition forwards are hopefully trying to do the same
5. The process continues until somebody cheats or makes a mistake, so you don't get 10-second plays then lengthy Gatorade breaks

Then carry on with talking about lineouts and scrums, different positions of players etc. There’s no need to emasculate the Entry to make it Wikipaedian, in my opinion; that WOULD be anaemic and boring.

As somebody who’s had his Entries systematically taken to pieces in the past, and then eventually accepted, my advice would be to just take any tactlessness (or ‘forthrightness’, if other contributors prefer) on the chin, and be prepared to make some compromises. Such is the fate of writing by committee.

Matt

I was learning something here, but now I'm totally confused

DrMatt, I can make no sense of your 5 points, and where does American football come into it?

Emmily

Isn't American football very like rugby, then? I always thought it was somehow.

This highlights how difficult it is to explain the game for somebody who knows nothing about it! Don't be too hard on Fraggle, it's actually quite complicated. The points I made earlier were more for Fraggle to simplify and fit into his Entry, but...

Basically Rugby Union is a game played by two teams of fifteen people. It takes place on a field much the about the same dimensions as a soccer or American football pitch. It uses an elliptical ball similar to that seen in American football (not a round one as used in soccer).

The object of the game is to carry the ball and touch it down anywhere over the opposition goal-line. In this it resembles American Football, and differs from soccer in that while there are H-shaped posts, it is not necessary to touch the ball down between them (what are they for? Tell you in a sec).

Any player can touch the ball down over the line, and this is called a "try"; named (according to legend) because it allowed the scorer to have a try (ie attempt) at kicking the ball over the crossbar of the H-shaped posts. This is still done, and is called "converting" the try. A try is worth five points and the conversion is worth two.

In order to get the ball over the try-line (or goal-line), teams can do one of several things. They can kick it close to the goal line and all run at it (nobody is allowed to tackle people unless they have the ball). This works only in very specific situations, because the other team is usually prepared for this.

What people often do instead is pass the ball (which must be done backwards) using the hands. This is unique to Rugby - in soccer obviously forward passing is fine (although not with the hands), and in American football the quarterback can throw the ball the length of the field forward if he wants to.

The person with the ball is fair game for a tackle. This must be done using the hands (no shoulder-charges or 'blocking' as seen in American Football). Once the player is tackled and falls over, they have to let the ball go and are out of the game until they stand back up. This is made difficult by both team's forwards, who crash into a pile of bodies and attempt to retrieve the ball. This pile is called a 'ruck.'

A good forward is always near his poor tackled teammate and tries to get the ball out as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, his opposition are trying to steal the ball for their side or at least slow it down so their team can get into position to tackle again.

All going well, this process continues until one or the other team scores a try, but quite commonly one of two things happen:
1. Somebody drops the ball. This is actually ok, unless it goes forwards, in which case it's called a 'knock-on' and play stops for a scrum.
2. Somebody violates one of the game's rather arcane and difficult-to-explain laws: either they pass forward, come into the ruck from the wrong side, hold onto or grab the ball when they're on the ground, or do something dangerous. This results in a penalty, which means that the team that are the victim get to have a kick; either at the posts, as in a conversion, or (if this is too far away for the team's kicker) they can kick it out further down the field, closer to the opposition tryline.

When the ball goes out, a line-out is called, which is a highly sophisticated version of soccer's throw-in. The forwards line up in two lines perpendicular to the side-line, and the team other than the one who put it out gets to throw it in down the middle. They will usually be aiming for the incredibly tall lock forwards that live in the middle of the line-out (and indeed, are usually selected because they’re good at jumping and catching the ball in this very situation). Then play resumes as 'normal'.

A scrum is essentially all of the forwards getting together in a sort of horizontal hug situation, and then attempt to push each other off the ball when a rather plucky scrum-half (or halfback) puts it in. It's difficult to explain without seeing it (maybe the final Entry needs to link to a picture...)

So what do the backs do? They get the ball back from rucks, lineouts and scrums. They are usually spread out in a line, all the easier to pass to each other. They are the ones that usually do the kicking, passing along the line to attempt to avoid tacklers, and are by far the faster runners (particularly the wings, whose specialty is running full tilt inside the sideline, outrunning tacklers and scoring tries).



There, that's not too complicated, is it?

And as a last appeal to keep some of the jokes; you don't want to go too far the other way and make the Entry boring for those of us familiar with the game. A few digs at the game's stereotypes (forwards are dumb, backs are poncy, Scotland is useless), I think, are perfectly acceptable as long as they don't muddy the waters for rugby novices. You'll note that rugby 'insiders' in this thread like the jokes, the 'outsiders' don't seem to as much.

Matt

DrMatt speaks wisely - a good entry is a balanced entry.

"I can't help it if I have a similar sense of humour to DNA."

My first ever inclusion in the Edited Guide was very Douglas Adams-esque:

"Driving in Texas is simple. There are two speeds - stop, and goveryfast. Goveryfast should be reached as soon as possible, which means that everyone floors the gas pedal when the lights turn green. It's a speed that is often maintained for as long as possible, which means that many Texans brake very late and very hard. The steering wheel isn't necessarily a means for changing direction, in fact it's a handily positioned armrest. Sometimes it seems as if it is mandatory under state law to make all turns one-handed. Everyone drives in the outside lane until they need to make a turn, then they'll cut across all lanes of traffic. In fact, any manoeuvre should made at the last possible moment."
A412958

And that's the watered down, edited version of what I actually wrote! I contributed to a few more collaborative entries, but it wasn't for another two years that I actually wrote an entry of my own and submitted it to PR - A755769 - a pretty humourless piece, but it got picked and even made Editor's choice for the day, which is why it has a picture on it. I was chuffed to bits.

All I did was write about something I know and follow the guidelines, especially the one that says write in your own style. I thought my style was DNA/Pratchett, but it turned out that it wasn't at all. During those two years before I wrote The Saguaro Boot I kept up with entries that were being picked for the EG and got a feel for what sort of thing the Editors were looking for, which is why I wrote what I did, and why it was picked. As far as I recall, every single entry I've submitted to PR since then (about 20 of them I think) has been picked and accepted, simply because I've written what I believe is being looked for. I use the same criteria when commenting on and recommending entries as a Scout, and so far I've got a pretty good strike rate, only having had a small handful of my recommendations rejected by the Editors.

And let's face it - when we get down to basics, this is just a website, and no-one here knows you in real life (or perhaps only one or two people). When someone criticises something you've written it's not *that* important - no-one lived or died, no-one got an arm ripped off, no-one lost their house or their job, no-one got ridiculed in front of a bunch of either people, even though it may feel that way. We're all just usernames to each other here and nobody has the power to make anyone else feel small or stupid or not with the in crowd. There's a real live person (me) writing these words, but to you I'm just phosphor dots on the screen of a cathode ray tube.

Unless you have a flat panel monitor.

Yeah - I've never tried to be funny in my few EG entries (four, including the one that's on the Front Page today). I've tried to give people information, but that's just me. I understand that some people regard humour as being much more important to an entry, and I won't stop you from including it just because I'm not always sure it belongs.

It's not easy to get an entry picked - though my first entry (A3197180) was picked in a couple weeks, one of my others (A3681560) has been languishing in Peer Review for the past four months - so if anyone wants to go over and comment on it I'd be really happy! It takes a lot of work and agreeing with people's suggestions and compromising. If Scouts feel that you're doing what they think should be done to the entry, they're much more likely to pick it.

I'm always pretty cynical about the DNA fans on this site, because I think it's something we should be staying away from. I know we all enjoy DNA's humour - that's why his books have sold so well! But let's face it, we aren't all geniuses like he was. It's best, if possible, I find, not to invoke DNA's name if at all possible. I think I'm going to write an article in the Post about this, but it seems to me that people tend to invoke DNA's name and turn on the WWDD? (What Would Douglas Do?) syndrome a little too often.


I think I understand the game of rugby a bit better, based on DrMatt's post, but I still don't get the bit about passing the ball backwards. Does that just mean that you stand with your back to the goal and throw the ball over your head in a goal-erly direction? If so, it seems almost too comical to be true.

These points might help you see what points need to be expanded on to appease the 'novices', Fraggle. Most important, don't get discouraged and keep making changes. That's a sure-fire way to get your entry recommended eventually!

You just have to pass the ball sideways... it just has to be at an angle on the goalward side of parallel to the goal-line. This means that rather than letting the ball do the work (as the best soccer players do) there's a lot more running involved in order to get the ball going forward.

Matt

PS Oh, and briefly League is similar, but people don't have to release the ball in the tackle. They are allowed to get up again and roll the ball between their legs to another player, who sets off again. But they only have six of these tackles to get as far as they can, otherwise the ball goes to the opposition. It's kind of like the American football system of 'downs' in this respect, and produces similar tactics (kicking the ball as far as you can on the last tackle etc).

Union used to be amateur, league professional. But Union has largely gone professional now, too.

Matt

If a girly might be able to tell you lot what the real difference between the two rugby codes isß

One word sums it up nicely: shorts.

Thank you and goodnight.

Oh... no, I wanted to comment about the passing the ball "backwards". I explain it like this, having seen Wales do it so well in the 70s which was about the last time I watched Rugby for the sport as opposed to watching it to check out mens bums.

ahem.

Oh yes, well to my untrained eye it seems that the team with the ball run up the pitch. They are spread right accross the pitch, with the chappie at one of the ends of their line having the ball. They run in a very slightly staggered fashion, diagonally behind the chappie with the ball. they then sort of chuck it sideways at the next guy in the line, who if he is running at the correct speed, and the throw was hard enough, should catch it and just carry on.

All the while they are being tackled etc by the opposing team.

I'm all for humour: my knowledge of rugby was mostly gleaned from The Bluffer's Guide, which mentioned wingers wearing anoraks a lot for some reason.

My Ex had several of Mick Skinner's video's, I picked up a lot of my so called knowledge from them, highly entertaining they were too, he used to discribe the Forwards as the 'Fat Boys' and the Backs as the 'Girls'

You shouldn't go into too much explaination about the Rugby League anyway because its a Rugby Union - Outsiders Guide.' Perhaps a brief explaintation of the history of the game including the split with league will help explain the difference between the two and then you can move on more into the rules of union.

Don't loose too many jokes, they make the article more accessable to people who do know they game, it needs to appeal to them as well because they WILL read the article especially as it's likely to be the first proper rugby one in the Guide.

Also you may want to add some information about the top nations, (New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, France, Wales, England, Ireland at the moment...I think you may also want to put in some external links to things like the IRB and RFU?

Keep at it Fraggle you've had a lot of replies which shows the level of interest already, keep bashing away at it, eventually the scouts will pass it to the editors...

Fingers crossed. Thanks for the support.

Are you still working on this Fraggle?


Emmily